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How much time studying vocabulary? | ||
Tags: Time to learn | Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| Ezy Ryder Diglot Senior Member Poland youtube.com/user/Kat Joined 4143 days ago 284 posts - 387 votes  Speaks: Polish*, English Studies: Mandarin, Japanese | Message 257 of 350 22 May 2015 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | ||
I could help, since Polish is one of s_allards target languages :) As for the "less is more" philosophy, let me quote Dr. Frasier Crane "If less is more, think how much more more would be." 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Jeffers Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4703 days ago 2151 posts - 3960 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German | Message 258 of 350 22 May 2015 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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Where is the origninal poster and why isn't he involved in this discussion?
->[Sarcasm Sign]<- 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| rdearman Senior Member United Kingdom rdearman.orgRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5030 days ago 881 posts - 1812 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Italian, French, Mandarin | Message 259 of 350 22 May 2015 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | ||
Po-ru ??? I think he had his question answered and left before it got to involved. :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 260 of 350 22 May 2015 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | ||
I really don't want to talk about the 300-word speaking threshold or the C2 speaking kernel any more because that is really old hat for me. Been there, done that. I'm so tired of repeating myself. And so are a lot of people. Can we move on? The above post is for me the key to understanding this running debate. The key observation I make here - and this is in no way a criticism - is that there is no mention of writing or talking in any of the target languages. As a matter of fact, the only time the word "speak" is mentioned is in the phrase "Speaking only for myself..." On the other hand, the verbs "read", "listen", "study", "watch" are used any number of times. I remarked the following phrase: "At the moment I've tested at or slightly under C1 in reading in French and I'm probably about the same in Italian (perhaps a little better)..." There is no mention of the results for written or oral production. As for the frustration that the author feels, it is entirely with reading in the target languages: "...when I have to stop and lookup words". What I deduce - and again, I repeat that this is not a criticism - is that the goal of this poster is to read and listen effectively in the target languages. Writing and talking with native speakers do not seem to be important. I, on the other hand, have stated what I want to do in Spanish. In another blog I gave a bucket list of 10 things I hope to do in Spanish before I die. They all involve writing or talking. For example, I want to write blog posts and emails in Spanish, give a conference in Spanish and participate in a round-table discussion, all in Spanish. Reading and listening are important for me because that is how I'm acquiring new material but it's always focused on improving my active performance. I feel frustrated as well, but not because of the number of unknown words I encounter in my reading. My frustration stems from the current state of writing and talking. Although my active Spanish has improved considerably because of the presence of a tutor, it's not where I want it to be. Is the problem not enough vocabulary? Certainly not. I would even say it's the opposite. I've spent too much time chasing down rare and exotic words in Spanish that I fall in love with and not enough time focusing on mastering things that are more commonly used. If I look at the corrections my tutor makes of my writings it is rarely about not having enough words; it's always about details of grammar and proper word usage. Certain mistakes, like overuse of the subjunctive, interference with French, wrong preposition usage keep coming back. According to my tutor my spoken Spanish is excellent, but am I happy? No. I'm still hesitating over certain conjugations, word choices like ser, estar, por, para. Lots of little mistakes. My sentence constructions are too clumsy. And it's just not fluent enough. Again, is the solution more vocabulary? Obviously not. The root problem is that the foundation, what I call the kernel, is not solid. I'm hesitating because I'm still unsure about too many things. In terms of vocabulary, what I'm really lacking is idioms. This is what separates the natives from the wannabes. And this is something that I'm focusing on right now. For me then concentrating on writing and speaking a small core of the language perfectly is more important that trying to use a large vocabulary and end up falling flat on my face. Now, a huge vocabulary is nice to have but I hope to get there in time after I've established a solid foundation. Edited by s_allard on 23 May 2015 at 4:18am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6391 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 261 of 350 23 May 2015 at 1:02am | IP Logged | ||
This is easier to do for a false beginner though. My main problem with your posts is that you assume most learners are like the ones you know in real life, but globally this mostly applies to learners of English, or for some learners from multilingual countries (but not all - I'm not sure it applies that much to Finnish learners of Swedish, for example). Some more past threads btw: Article: students fall short on vocabulary Average Joe/Jose takes a level test Moving from B2 to C2 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5224 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 262 of 350 23 May 2015 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | ||
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An interesting aspect of the CEFR language assessment model is the total absence of any reference to vocabulary
size. Good vocabulary is undoubtedly very important, and we can probably safely assume that having a big vocabulary is better than a small one. At the same time, there are no vocabulary tests as such in the CEFR system. When judging your speaking skills, the examiner is certainly not going to ask you to recite the 100 most common nouns in English or to name 12 parts of a bicycle. The examiner can form a pretty good opinion of how well you speak the language within a few minutes of listening to you. What makes the examiner say: "This person really knows their stuff?" or "Not bad, but it's not C2, it's more like B2." ? Do they do this by counting the different word families the candidate uses? No. We make similar judgments with students of our native language. In my opinion, here are the hallmarks of a good speaker of a foreign language: 1. Lack of mistakes of any kind. Mistakes tell the listener that something is wrong. But mistakes do occur; what is also good is the ability to correct one's mistakes. 2. Grammatical accuracy. The right morphological inflections, the right word order. 3. Fluency. Not too much hesitating and stammering. 4. Good use of idiomatic language. This indicates real ease with the language. 5. Precision of vocabulary. Good choice of words and the ability to distinguish details. 6. Good sense of register. Knowing how to play with different varieties of language, maybe even regional differences. 7. Good pronunciation. It doesn't take long to evaluate all of this. An examiner may say something like: "Tell us a bit about yourself, what you've done, how you became interested in this language, etc." or maybe "What did you do last weekend?" Or you may have to make a presentation on a subject and then have a discussion. Vocabulary size doesn't enter into the picture because it is the overall ability to use the language that is important. You would be extremely ill advised to prepare for a speaking exam by trying to cram 5000 words just before the exam. That's a recipe for disaster. You'd be better off rehearsing with a tutor and getting your basics right. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6391 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 263 of 350 23 May 2015 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | ||
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That's not universal for all exams though. In Finland the examiner is a mere interviewer that gets you to speak, asks additional questions and lets you show what you know (or exposes your gaps). The interview is recorded and a completely different person watches it and evaluates your level. (That's for C1/C2. Below that you speak into the microphone)
Speaking about yourself or your weekend is more of an opportunity to break the ice and establish some contact. I don't trust any evaluation that relies on this. Fluency or pronunciation also mean more for producing a nice impression than for CEFR. If they don't hinder the communication, they shouldn't affect anything. (and I assume if someone stutters in L1 too they won't be penalized even if it's hard to understand them) 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4327 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 264 of 350 24 May 2015 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | ||
Can't we just drop discussion of the CEFR for a moment? I feel like we've discussed this point to death (and you even said so yourself in a previous post). It might or might not be true that people only need a relatively small vocabulary to pass the CEFR, but it doesn't logically follow that there is no reason not to learn a larger vocabulary. I am struggling through a book at the moment (Bombay. Maximum City by Suketu Mehta) and the problem I am having is vocabulary. Not grammar. I don't care if the vocabulary in this book is well above what is required for a CEFR exam. That doesn't matter. I want to read the book. 9 persons have voted this message useful |
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