How much time studying vocabulary? (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

How much time studying vocabulary?
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

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Serpent
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Message 97 of 350

15 May 2015 at 10:29pm | IP Logged

smallwhite wrote:

I knew this gap between you and I would never close. That's why I asked you to simply tell me what you prefer to see from me.

Just some benefit of doubt? Acknowledge the concerns you get and address them instead of dismissing. Simply bear in mind that many members here are at least as experienced as you if not more (robarb, Iversen).

Quote:

I don't know how I handled. I worked when I wanted to, and didn't work when I didn't want to. This Forgetting Curve thing and this Multiplier / Interval thing is just based on statistics. They're averages. They are not exact predictors of what and when you will forget. Doing a rep doesn't guarantee remembering, and missing a rep doesn't guarantee forgetting. I don't sweat it. I don't sweat anything about my cards.

I asked you because the Swedish learner has disappeared long ago. And because you're a rare case of actually achieving something with/after cramming.

Sorry if you've already explained this elsewhere, but how many new cards did you add? Did you SRS every day? if 22 min is the average, what was the typical pattern?

I'm glad you don't sweat about your cards as much as you appear to :)
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smallwhite
Pentaglot
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Message 98 of 350

15 May 2015 at 11:36pm | IP Logged

Serpent wrote:

Sorry if you've already explained this elsewhere, but how many new cards did you add? Did you SRS every day? if 22 min is the average, what was the typical pattern?

I'm glad you don't sweat about your cards as much as you appear to :)

I don't spend up to over a minute with one card, I don't "savour" my cards, I don't "feel the emotions of the original context again, and smile, giggle, sigh or whatever" as you described. I don't study my cards in depth, I just answer and press Enter. They say you remember a word via multiple encounters, they did not say savour or smile or giggle or sigh. I don't know how many I add (per day, I guess you mean). I don't SRS every day. Typical pattern is I pick 5 to 10 easiest words, drill them, and start to SRS them. I had 7972 by day 116. So I picked X batches of Y words over 116 days, theoretically. In reality I probably did something else, too.

Serpent wrote:

smallwhite wrote:

I knew this gap between you and I would never close. That's why I asked you to simply tell me what you prefer to see from me.

And I get this when I try to end an un-promising discussion. OK. Acknowledge the newbies. Acknowledge the veterans. Gee, I should get paid for this.

I'm pretty sure Iversen learns more words than I do, why me??

Serpent wrote:

smallwhite wrote:

I mean 8000 cards. It's up to you whether you want to do 8000 different lemmas(?) or 8000 versions of the one word "llegar".
...
tl;dr Those figures I gave were just a quantification of the standard Memrise/Anki routines. If I asked you to quantify how much time it takes to SRS, you'd have come up with the same figures.
4 seconds x ( 6 initial reps + 9 review reps ) x 8000 cards / 365 days = 22 minutes per day answering cards

And I guess standard Anki/Memrise routine kinda makes it sound like lots of users of these systems do 8000+ single-word cards per year. Maybe our reality just differs here.

Addressing concern 95.3:

With all those variables varying with each other, and 8000 being my goal and the subject brought-forward, that formula was the only way I knew to quantify the time needed. I've done my best.

So how could I have better presented how long it takes to SRS?

Serpent wrote:

smallwhite wrote:

To me this is where it turned into overgeneralization. Even if we limit it to Spanish, you still can't do just any 8000 cards. I doubt it's doable/useful for a non-beginner, for example. And I personally believe that a beginner who already knows French can pick 3000 relatively hard Spanish words out of your 8000 and get the rest through input.

Addressing concern 95.1 because I have to address the concerns that I get instead of dismissing them:

How can I address this? First 3 sentences: Well, you guess one thing, I guess another thing, and we're both guessing. Last sentence: (I feel like I'm cross-examined). If input is a given for you, if you get input regardless of whether you really need it or whether you have time for it, then yes, you can learn things from input as if for free. But I don't do input if I don't have to, such as if I have reached my goal or have passed my exam. In any case, noted, good idea.

Edited by smallwhite on 15 May 2015 at 11:43pm
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rdearman
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Message 99 of 350

16 May 2015 at 3:07am | IP Logged

smallwhite wrote:

I feel like I'm cross-examined

You should feel that way! Everyone wants to know how to be a winner, so we study the methods of winners. Anyway, I did the math, you basically were cramming 69 (actually 68.724) words per day in order to get to the target number (7972/116). So this isn't unrealistic. I did a quick check using the spreadsheet I devised (posted link previously in this thread but I'm too lazy to look it up again) based on your method, as you'd described.

I've recently acquired a lexicon database of Italian from Institute of Cognitive Sciences and Technologies, and I dumped into my spreadsheet 400+ most common words in Italian from this DB (*see note). I hid the first column and then reviewed/answered as many as I could in 60 seconds. I didn't hurry, but I did just write what I thought was the answer and moved on if it was wrong, since I would repeat.

I did 40 "cards" in 60 seconds, and I wasn't in a hurry (and I got a lot wrong!) so I can see where this method is much faster and more efficient than anki for this type of review. It also highlighted to me anyway that although I know the Italian word, I don't know the spelling most of the time. In fact I estimate that more than 70% of the answers I got wrong were spelling mistakes. So this is a great method for drilling myself on spelling.

I think this is actually a good method for beginners, because regardless of what some people might believe, the more words you know the better. IMHO. Also this method is part active and part passive. You are not only learning to recognise the words but you are actively using them because you have to type them in. Bit of a revelation for me, because I used flashcards for vocabulary and because I wasn't imputing them. I recognise but not duplicate (if that makes sense). In fact I've modified my Mandarin anki deck so I have lots more cloze deletion sentences which require me to type the Chinese character into the field.

* (I am planning on posting this on GitHub at some point like EMK did, and do a write up of my findings, and a Makefile to build your own DB.)
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smallwhite
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Message 100 of 350

16 May 2015 at 7:52am | IP Logged

rdearman wrote:

I hid the first column and then reviewed/answered as many as I could in 60 seconds. I didn't hurry...

Thanks for giving it a go and posting the results.

1530 of my words were from a vocabulary book with mp3s that go "茶. der Tee. ddeerrr Teeeee. 啤酒. das Bier. dddaaasss Biiiieeeeerrrr". The German guy's voice was super sexy and I could listen to him forever, although I felt a bit jealous of that Chinese girl. I listened to them as I typed the words into my Excel, one chapter at a time. Took about 15 mins a chapter. There were 26 words in the "drinks" chapter. After typing, I picked out all the easier words, ones that I kind of remembered already or had the potential to, fiddled around with them one way or another, and started the SRS process. Usually I ended up SRSing about 20 and leaving about 10 for later.

Edited by smallwhite on 16 May 2015 at 7:58am
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tarvos
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Message 101 of 350

16 May 2015 at 8:01am | IP Logged

The only time it helps to giggle or sigh when you learn a new world is if it helps you to
remember that word.

Otherwise, just remember the word.
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Serpent
Octoglot
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Russian Federation
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Message 102 of 350

16 May 2015 at 4:46pm | IP Logged

smallwhite wrote:

If you have a memorable encounter with a lion, one time will be enough to remember the word forever :) if you survive, that is. So I prefer fictional encounters.

smallwhite wrote:

Quote:

Even if we limit it to Spanish, you still can't do just any 8000 cards. I doubt it's doable/useful for a non-beginner, for example. And I personally believe that a beginner who already knows French can pick 3000 relatively hard Spanish words out of your 8000 and get the rest through input.

How can I address this? First 3 sentences: Well, you guess one thing, I guess another thing, and we're both guessing. Last sentence: (I feel like I'm cross-examined). If input is a given for you, if you get input regardless of whether you really need it or whether you have time for it, then yes, you can learn things from input as if for free. But I don't do input if I don't have to, such as if I have reached my goal or have passed my exam. In any case, noted, good idea.

Sorry for making you feel uncomfortable.
Let me elaborate then: do you agree that your method depends on the extra reinforcement through input, in addition to SRS? If you pick less common 8000 words (for example, you already know some 5000), do you have to make sure they come up in your input? Makes me remember that part from E. Gunnemark's book where he described his trip to Romania and Hungary, and how he knew just 200-300 Hungarian words but they were more useful than the "dead weight" of several thousand Romanian words in his mind. Basically, how do you prevent those words from becoming dead weight? Especially when you're done with input. (thanks for clarifying that you don't do it after reaching your goals or passing an exam... then what is the purpose of your learning? Genuinely curious)

I mean, I agree that you don't really need 10k words to speak well. But do you think your method will work for going from B1 to C1?

I'm not guessing, btw. I'm making conclusions based on my experience of helping learners for years.

Edited by Serpent on 16 May 2015 at 4:53pm
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LangOfChildren
Tetraglot
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Message 103 of 350

16 May 2015 at 5:49pm | IP Logged

Po-ru wrote:

How much
time do you believe should be spent studying vocabulary actively? How much do you spend
studying vocabulary actively? By actively I mean using things like word lists or flashcards.

In hours: zero, or as little as possible -- if we're really only talking about learning words in a vacuum (e.g. flashcards). Just listening to comprehensible input is the best, while Anki is (largely) a waste of time compared to what you could be doing instead.

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Ezy Ryder
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Message 104 of 350

16 May 2015 at 6:06pm | IP Logged

And how do you make input compelling enough to stick with it, comprehensible?

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