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How much time studying vocabulary? | ||
Tags: Time to learn | Vocabulary learning | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4326 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes  Studies: German | Message 153 of 350 18 May 2015 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Yes of course. Recognition is much easier than production. But being able to say "window = fenster" is not really much by way of real production either. I see SRS as a useful way of boosting your receptive language skills so you can tackle native materials. Overtime words you recognize become active. I think the best way to practice active skills is to actively produce output (speaking/writing). What sort of data do you want? I have previously done 1000s of simple SRS cards like you do and have come to the conclusion that I was largely wasting my time. Or more accurately that it was a very inefficient way to learn. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4326 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 154 of 350 18 May 2015 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
And this goes all the way up. The only people I know who truly are fluent in English (the only language I can really judge) all are vorocious readers. Perhaps you don't need to read a lot to get to B2, but I am certain there is no way to get to C2 without it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6390 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 155 of 350 18 May 2015 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Whom do you mean? I aim for all four skills too (in most languages). I know that Patrick is also interested in speaking - heck, he's in Berlin! It's true that my initial goals are heavily focused on comprehension, but that's because I mostly travel to Finland, and because I've activated passive skills before and I know how to do this. Besides, true C1 comprehension skills require at least B1-B2 production. To appreciate the style, you need to know not only the words that were used (like the 1743 in Alice), but also which common ones were avoided; which ways to say this or that thing are not the default ones. Can you reply about the Chinese forum btw? Has anyone tried your method and what were the results? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3335 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 156 of 350 18 May 2015 at 1:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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It seems a lot of this discussion is narrowly focused on flash cards. You may call it SRS if you want to be clever about your repetition intervals but at the end of the day it is still just flash cards. Nothing wrong with them; I sometimes use flash cards and SRS software but these are not my favorite methods and I limit the time I'm using them to a very small amount (like 1%).
LWT was mentioned earlier which I find it a helpful tool for learning vocabulary using texts. You can highlight whatever parts you want and save them to your language list for study. But studying them separately is optional. If you prefer, you can just go on to read the next text. A simple vocabulary tool I like to use is a word notebook - As an example, sometimes I listen to the news without a transcript and while it's playing I will enter the new words and expressions in my word notebook. Write a brief context in your notebook, put a translation if it helps (guess the translation if necessary but don't consult a dictionary until later). Reviewing the list later is totally optional. Whether or not I review, the act of making these notes still helps me to learn the vocabulary. Adapt this exercise to whatever form your input takes (watching TV, music, conversation, attending a lecture, attending business meetings, etc etc.). For reading I don't need such a notebook because I can mark directly on the page that I'm reading from. With such methods, it's not necessary to allocate specific time dedicated "on vocabulary" as the time is basically combined with whatever other exercises you're doing anyway (listening to news, reading a textbook, speaking in a meeting, conversing over coffee, etc.). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| chaotic_thought Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 3335 days ago 129 posts - 274 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Dutch, French | Message 157 of 350 18 May 2015 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
I don't "learn" from flash cards, rather I "review" from flash cards, but I looked at my "top 10 most missed words" (i.e. which words did I have to repeat the most) from an SRS deck I have been using for Dutch: boterhammen / een plakje brood dat van een groter brood is gesneden streken / regio onmiddellijk / dadelijk; meteen gematigd / niet erg warm en niet erg koud kousen / sokken merken / kleding van bekende ____ zacht / <> hard opvangen / het glas viel van tafel, maar ik kon het nog net ____ kotelet / een stuk vlees van een varken zich schamen / ik ____ voor mijn grote neus The words are taken from a beginner's textbook and contains a total of 2196 words used in that book. In my card format I put the right-hand side on the front of the card (maybe with a little more context) and must type the left-hand side in the proper form (e.g. zich schamen should be typed as 'ik schaam me' due to the context). Looking at the above list I realize that most of the time I missed them because of spelling problems or typos (typing 'onmiddelijk' or 'gematigt' or something like that). The words themselves are not a problem though. I won't say it's a waste of time though because I use timeboxing and see that my average time spent is 3 minutes per day on these lists. Still, flash cards are not very interesting. If I didn't have to type the words then I wouldn't even do it because it would be too boring, and I like having a simple pass/fail decision. If I didn't type the word correctly that means fail. Otherwise it means pass. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4326 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 158 of 350 18 May 2015 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Thanks! :) Since I am an immigrant to Germany my aim is full fluency in German. So +C2. For me it just seems much more efficient (since I know I'll have to spend many years on this goal) to work on getting to a point where you can access good quality input as soon as possible, then to work on output. My first aim was to get to a point where I could comfortably get lots of advanced input (i.e., comfortably read books; read good quality newspapers; watch movies for pleasure); to create a sort of virtuous circle of ever greater and more complex input and so continue to deepen my L2 language structures. I am getting that point now (though it might take a year or two really consolidate things). Now I am here speaking is much much easier as well, even though I haven't paid much attention to it. Partly because I understand what people say pretty well, and also because I have picked up a lot of useful grammar along the way, so even if my own grammar is not perfect I can speak and importantly understand people. Once my speaking is a bit better I will start working on writing and mop up whatever grammar points remain. Anyway if you simply want to get B2 as fast as possible it's probably not the right approach. I am already C1 range for listening and reading after all, but for really advanced skills it feels like an efficient approach for me. Edited by patrickwilken on 18 May 2015 at 2:17pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5101 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 159 of 350 18 May 2015 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Data about how many production cards processed over a certain time. You said you could process 2000 recognition cards a month, and I'd like to know if you have similar data on production cards:
Do you mean simple production cards or recognition cards? If you mean simple recognition cards, I don't do them either. Did you zip through them or did you spend time with each card?
S_allard brought that up, but it doesn't have to be anybody. I mean when we compare methods and experiences we should compare ones that have the same aim (the aim can be narrow but in our case a broad aim makes better sense).
I think you've misunderstood. You must be referring to this:
The subject matter was discouraging newbies and that's what I was referring to. I meant I write about adding 8k words in 4 mths, etc high bar stuff (and how I did them) and fellow learners thanked me blah blah blah. I meant I received positive responses there, and didn't expect that writing the same things here would generate negative responses.
Can you let me know what "my method" is, please? Edited by smallwhite on 18 May 2015 at 3:47pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
| smallwhite Pentaglot Senior Member Australia Joined 5101 days ago 537 posts - 1045 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin, French, Spanish | Message 160 of 350 18 May 2015 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||||||||||||||
You reminded me ;) You asked me in the poll thread what I could do with my 8k words, and I wrote a long message about my first 200 days. I asked you back what your first 200 days were like and was hoping to hear from you. Your aim above is exactly the same as mine so you're really the only person whom I can compare the efficiency of what I did against. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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