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Annoying mistakes in your native language | ||
Tags: Native Language | Error | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Calvino Diglot Groupie Sweden sammafllod.wordpress Joined 5776 days ago 65 posts - 66 votes  2 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: French, Spanish, German | Message 57 of 151 03 July 2009 at 9:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Well, let's see...
"hardcore inland dialect... so wrong..." Yeah, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. But those conclusions are based on your exact choice of words, so I don't know if I am the one to blame (or the Swedish school system, for that matter).
Then your way of speaking would still not constitute a dialect since a) it's not established and b) it's not a local or regional (i.e., geographically defined) variety. Let's turn the tables. How do you suggest we determine what will qualify as correct language? By reference to the dictionaries and grammars of the Swedish Academy? By calqueing the way news anchors speak? By decree from the Riksdag? The Frankenstein's monster-esque creation known as "rikssvenska" is, I must remind you, historically not even a proper way of talking at all. It’s an affectation adopted by the up-and-coming bourgeoisie (who wanted to distinguish themselves from both the lower classes from which they stemmed and the aristocracy they wished to surmount) in the late 19th century, drawing heavily on the written language. It has irreversibly become the norm of “good” Swedish, but to insist on it as the only correct way of speaking is historically ignorant, and plays in the hand of classist and regionalist special interests.
I have no opinion as regards your other languages, but as for your mother tongue, which you happen to share with me: yes! I do believe that the care of the language is better left in the hands of those who love it enough to be willing to make an effort. Edited by Calvino on 03 July 2009 at 9:30am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6488 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 58 of 151 03 July 2009 at 9:44am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I'm too lazy to continue quoting in a fashionable manner. I do not equal "dialectal" and "erroneous" just because in one example I said that using "jag" as object pronoun was wrong. There are lots of things that are dialectal that are simply... dialectal. Like "vars" instead of "var/vart". And why should we speak the Swedish of 100-200 years ago? Languages evolve, in this case a language was helped along the way quite a lot, but who cares? That's how it is TODAY. We do not live in the past. Or well, I don't. Should languages just be complete mayhem without structure and unity? Screw clarity? What Swedish should foreigners learn then if the standard language is not correct? What if my harem stays in the same place for 100 years? Is it ok then? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5648 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 59 of 151 03 July 2009 at 10:17am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Perhaps the discussion can be continued in the Swedish thread in the Multilingual room?
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| Calvino Diglot Groupie Sweden sammafllod.wordpress Joined 5776 days ago 65 posts - 66 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: French, Spanish, German | Message 60 of 151 03 July 2009 at 10:28am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Oh? So some regionalism are more equal than others? How do you suggest we distinguish between erroneous regionalisms and "simply... dialectal" regionalisms? Why is "vars" ok, but "han gav den åt jag" not? Is there some logic in it, or should we all just trust your gut feeling?
I never said we should speak the Swedish of 200 years ago. I just wished to illustrate, that the claims to correctness of rikssvenska is really tied into the historical process of the urban (Stockholm) bourgeoisie's rise to power, and that, consequently, any linguistic snobbism in favor of that particular variety of the language is far from politically neutral. The victims of attitudes like yours include every young girl from the province who has ever moved to Stockholm and been forced to train away her dialect in order to fit in and acquire status and respect.
It beats me how you manage to ascribe that moronic idea to me. Dialects are not "complete mayhem without structure and unity"; they have their own grammars, their own lexica, their own phonologies. But sure, if you believe that people in the province speak a little bit as they feel like, it might shed new light on your opinions.
And at this, I am completely flabbergasted. Where, pray tell, do I claim that the standard language is not correct? All I've been wanting to say, is that there are more ways of speaking "correctly" than one.
Then we can talk. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6488 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 61 of 151 03 July 2009 at 11:03am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Well, I don't understand how you can claim that people who move to Stockholm should somehow train away their dialect. The Stockholm dialect is horrible! It can't be an improvement, wherever you come from to begin with.
And regarding lack of structure, sure, the dialect works within the designated area. But outside of it? It does get a bit messy, just look at Norway and the way some Norwegians write. There are 15 ways to spell one pronoun, and sometimes they aren't even similar. It does have some charm though. Do you think people in Sweden should write in dialect as well? "Vars" is a new word all on it own, it's the "dom" of direction/place, and so is the exquisite verb "he". Ahhh, such cute attacks just because of an opinion. That should teach me a lesson! We all know different opinions aren't accepted in commie Sweden, right? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Calvino Diglot Groupie Sweden sammafllod.wordpress Joined 5776 days ago 65 posts - 66 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: French, Spanish, German | Message 62 of 151 03 July 2009 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I don't claim they "should" do it. I claim they have to do it, if they wanna be taken seriously. It's an actual fact of reality.
No. Written language is a matter all of its own. We have a written standard in Swedish, which is distinct from the dialects as well as from the spoken standard. So for instance...
..."dom" is hardly comparable to "vars", since "dom" is standard spoken Swedish. If you actually use "de" and "dem" in speech, you're either speaking dialect or you're a preacher reading from the Bible, trying to sound somber. And why should dialectal vocabulary be okay, while dialectal grammar isn't? What kind of ridiculously arbitratry delimitation is that?
Yes, indeed. The horrible communist nightmare that is Sweden is truly the only place in the world where you will run the risk of having your opinions questioned. How can we suffer this totalitarian madness?! *Rolleyes* Edited by Calvino on 03 July 2009 at 12:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6488 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 63 of 151 03 July 2009 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Completely new dialectal words can not sound wrong to me (they are just like new vocab!), grammar that differs from the grammar I was taught can, however. And since you wouldn't write in dialect either then I'm not really sure what we are arguing about. Spoken language is just... a mess. And I think I say "de".
I was just mentioning our neighbour and his way of speaking, and you attacked me! You don't happen to be an Älvsdalare, do you? I guess the difference between is us is that you are obsessed with legitimizing use of this and that, whereas I simply don't care that much. Just because something is wrong that doesn't mean you can't use it. I am veeery sad to have to say that this is my last post. My tendinitis doesn't approve of me typing this much. -- By the way, are you one of those girls who had to train away her dialect? Cause I've never met anyone who had to do that, and it sounds rather extreme. Edited by tricoteuse on 03 July 2009 at 12:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Calvino Diglot Groupie Sweden sammafllod.wordpress Joined 5776 days ago 65 posts - 66 votes 2 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: French, Spanish, German | Message 64 of 151 03 July 2009 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I did not attack you; I objected against you qualifying your neighbours way of speaking as "wrong". And no, I am not from Älvdalen and I do not use "jag" as an object pronoun, although I have relatives that do.
Well... you started by mentioning your neighbour's way of speaking. Not his way of writing. So naturally, I assumed we were talking about spoken language, not written. Spoken language is not a mess. It is, as you might be aware, the original form of language and the sine qua non of all writing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vACnVGoupA Edited by Calvino on 03 July 2009 at 1:39pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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