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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 617 of 1511 09 April 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The Routledge Introductory Course in Modern Hebrew. It consists of 90 lessons (8 units,
my bad). It's quite thorough. Most lessons are two to three pages - it's basically a giant workbook with an internet site to accompany it that has all the audio, recorded verb conjugations, everything. The website is linked to in the book but you need a password and username to be able to access the audio (it's free and everyone has the same username/password I think). I also have l'Hebreu sans peine, in a series of Assimil books in French, but I have not done anything with that bar listen to the audio of the first lesson and read through it a bit. Edited by tarvos on 09 April 2013 at 10:15pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Expugnator Hexaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5167 days ago 3335 posts - 4349 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian | Message 618 of 1511 09 April 2013 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Thank you, tarvos. As you may know, I like the format with shorter lessons, and Routledge's stuff seems to be more focused on grammar, so it would be a nice complement to the Assimils. I don't think I have it, though, but there's so much for Hebrew around, anyway.
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 619 of 1511 10 April 2013 at 7:35am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It is actually surprisingly hard to find a
dictionary that is adequate. They are available on Amazon, but those dictionaries often work with transliteration which is absolutely useless. Furthermore there are dictionaries for biblical Hebrew which is doubly beside the point. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 620 of 1511 10 April 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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For now, just a note on Hebrew transliterations - god, do I hate the way the French
transliterate Hebrew. Okay, they DO distinguish kaf and qof, (and transliterate with k and q, although both have the value /k/ in Modern Hebrew), but not distinguishing between he and chet is annoying. /h/ is not /χ/! And yes, I know chet used to be pronounced /ħ/, but that is also not /h/! This is one reason reading the Assimil annoys me (and why I started with the routledge course, apart from that the Assimil course loves niqqud - and I want to learn how to read without niqqud because guess what THAT IS HOW YOU WRITE). And it is also annoying because you can use a lot of much better transliterations for chet like... ummm /x/ (because one of its former values was /x/), /ch/ (because it's the same sound as kaf without a dagesh, namely /χ/), although /ch/ might be confusing because that sound represents /ʃ/ in French (and there's a different letter indicating that sound in Hebrew, even kh... but not h! And to note that French doesn't even have /h/ 99% of the time! This annoys the living hell out of me and it was the one thing that pissed me off when someone wrote to me in transliterated Hebrew transliterating it like a Frenchman. The best is of course to simply learn how to read Hebrew, but I understand it is not feasible for those among us who have no interest in learning Modern Hebrew. And this rant is not about Biblical Hebrew because in that language some Hebrew letters do not have the same pronunciation (e.g. alef and ayin are pronounced differently, whereas now they are both a glottal stop). Speaking of Hebrew pronunciation, it is actually very easy to pronounce nowadays. The only tough sound being indeed /χ/ for most people (or /h/ if you are Russian...) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 621 of 1511 12 April 2013 at 12:26am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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FR: Aujourd'hui je n'ai pas fait grande chose avec mes langues. J'ai eu une leçon de
russe (qui était absolument atroce et je n'en veux pas parler, ça allait si mal!), mais j'ai reçu des bonnes nouvelles - le premier était que j'ai réussi au test final du cours de français à niveau B1.3 en obtenant la note 18,6/20, y compris un 24/25 pour l'expression écrit et l'oral (et l'expression, et la compréhension. J'ai pas l'intention de continuer cette semestre, je n'ai pas le temps, mais j'ai l'intention de continuer mes études de français d'une autre façon, soit autodidacte, soit en utilisant iTalki, soit en trouvant un cours après avoir reçu mon diplôme. Ce qui me fait mal, c'est le fait qu'il était si facile pour moi d'obtenir des tels notes que 88,92,93% sans vraiment devoir faire aucun vrai effort; ça ne m'a pris que 10 minutes pour les exercices grammaticales et encore 15-30 minutes par semaine en faisant l'écrit obligatoire chaque semaine. Du coup c'est très peu, et ça donne encore une indication que j'ai obtenu des résultants plus avancé que la totalité de B1 (y compris l'utilisation d'Alter Ego, un livre de texte absolument atroce). Je n'ai pas le courage de définir mon niveau exacte en français, mais ça devrait être B2 en tout cas (et pas plus car il y a une vraie multitude de fautes inévitables que je devrais faire avant que j'arrive au niveau C1 où C2 - et non, l'accent ne compte pas). En addition, j'ai acheté le livre "Barbe bleue" par (qui d'autre) Amélie Nothomb afin d'avoir quelque chose de lire en français pendant mon absence aux cours de groupe. Je m'y rendrai plus tard mais je n'ai pas encore une idée quand ce bonheur sera de retour. En concernant mes autres langues, hier j'ai fini deux leçons d’hébreu et de roumain, y compris mettre les nouveaux mots dans Anki. J'ai reconnu que le roumain ne pose pas trop de problèmes quant au lecture (ok, admettons, qu'il y a assez de mots inconnus, mais ça va quand même), mais que la production orale et écrite laisse encore quelque chose à souhaiter. L’hébreu est un peu plus problématique - malgré sa structure très régulière, l’hébreu, comme le russe, force l'apprenant à retenir des mots aux racines ne pas correspondant aux racines romanes ou Germaniques - le russe contient encore des emprunts qui sont reconnaissables (pourvu que l'apprenant sait encore lire l'alphabet cyrillique) mais ça ne va pas du tout de même pour l’hébreu, qui a du mal à adapter des nouveaux mots - logique car la morphologie verbale est très particulière avec ses racines tri- littérales (et donc les emprunts qui existent sont pratiquement toujours des noms ou parfois des adjectifs). Ça demande la construction d'une nouvelle vocabulaire. Tandis qu'en russe, j'ai réussi (en toute façon à la base) de construire cette vocabulaire (ne pas en disant que je connais tous les secrets du russe), cette structure n'est pas encore complété en hébreu. J'ai décidé de commencer avec l'Assimil dès que le Breton sans peine soit fini - il me reste encore 26 leçons dans la vague active... Tandis qu'en roumain, tout est limpide comme l'eau de source... (ah non - mais cette langue est peu mystérieuse si on sait déjà parler une autre langue romane... et les emprunts slaves ne sont pas difficiles puisque je parle le russe). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 622 of 1511 12 April 2013 at 8:58am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Why did you laugh at me when I complained about similar things? The Serbo-Croatian l is not the same as lj (not all ljudi are ludi). The English t is not the Russian т, and of course ъ doesn not indicate a short pause in Russian and so on. Now you can see my point, can't you? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4708 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 623 of 1511 12 April 2013 at 10:20am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Because the point here is not that the sounds cannot be pronounced in a certain way
(I'm not talking about velar vs uvular pronunciation f.e.x), but that the transliteration in the Assimil is ambiguous. I'm not arguing about the actual sound values. An English transliteration is also inaccurate but generally represents the difference between kaf, chaf (kaf with a dagesh). The problem is that the French don't have any of these guttural sounds (except the uvular R) and therefore they don't assign a sound to it at all, but inconsistently mix letters although they indicate earlier on what the actual values of those sounds are (i.e. that chet is pronounced /χ/ and not / ħ/ as in Biblical Hebrew). It is not that they transliterate to the wrong sounds, but that they transliterate to a transcription which is ambiguous given some knowledge of the original Hebrew letters (I can read the script and the niqqud, but I cannot really read any Hebrew text very well yet). That isn't the same as exact 1-to-1 correspondence of English and Russian T sounds, it's bemoaning the lack of a good transliteration for Hebrew which admittedly is also due to the fact you need to accomodate some double sounds, because chaf and chet have the same value, kaf and qof have the same value, tav and tet have the same value (i.e. /t/) and so on. Hei and chet (occasionally also written het) used to be pronounced quite similar in the old days, although they are not in Modern Hebrew. I do my best to pronounce all sounds properly (even though in Russian f.ex. ш и щ give trouble), you should already know that despite the fact that I cannot grasp some sounds very well (German soft ch, Swedish sj-sound) ;) English t is alveolar as opposed to dental, right? I am not familiar with Serbo-Croatian to a large extent, but are l and lj in Serbo- Croatian in any way comparable to Russian л, ль? Edited by tarvos on 12 April 2013 at 10:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5057 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 624 of 1511 12 April 2013 at 10:45am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Yes, I'm talking about bad explanations and transliterations too (although not for Hebrew).
Yes. Plus there are some other differences.
Yes, they are similar, although not identical (the S.-C. sounds are softer). 1 person has voted this message useful |
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