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Radioclare’s TAC log 2014 (*jäŋe/*ledús) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4581 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 473 of 522 04 December 2014 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | ||
I didn't mean to criticise anyone for not being able to replicable some weird English vowel sound. I meant that (to me) it would sound closer to the English sound if they used the Serbian 'a' rather than the Serbian 'e'. However I think tarvos just established that I can't speak English and so my viewpoint is invalid :) Also don't get me started about ć and č :D I am taking comfort in the fact that I once read not all Croatian speakers make the distinction properly themselves in all words. I can hear the difference but it's 50:50 whether the correct sound comes out of my mouth. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 474 of 522 04 December 2014 at 3:46pm | IP Logged | ||
Obviously. Your "e" is palatalised, э is a pure vowel :) I was talking about the IPA "e". Of course you should pronounce loanwords with the local pronunciation, I also do not pronounce "race" "rase" in Dutch or "finish" "finisch". Radioclare, there isn't such a thing as an incorrect pronunciation of English. English simply has a very wide variety of allophones depending on the dialect you speak. Because you are from the northern part of England this means you have conserved certain features in speech that are different or absent in many other varieties. The problem is that for good pronunciation in foreign languages, to reduce your accent, these little phonological differences are the ones that count and make the difference. The devil's definitely in the details. The problem that I find English people have with accents is because their phonological system is quite divergent from many common phonologies, that their accent becomes audible because the little differences are never taught when it comes to pronunciation. But that's a wholly different story I don't want to bother your log with :) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 475 of 522 04 December 2014 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Nowadays there's no need to ask people from your office.
Maybe Wolverhampton is a bad example because most people who recorded this word seem to be locals :) I also have to say that I really love how in your dialect you pronounce both a and u the way they are written :-) I almost wish I could change the way I speak now that I know it's acceptable somewhere in the English-speaking world. I don't think I can do this consistently for all words though. @tarvos, I mostly meant that we at least use different letters for e and a in the word Wolverhampton. at least when it's about the football club - the town is actually Вулвергемптон, eek. I kinda hate this г for h transliteration. Edited by Serpent on 04 December 2014 at 4:14pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 476 of 522 04 December 2014 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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I think that's because the pronunciation of г shifted over time - Russian does this all
the time with German and Dutch town names too, even though the current realisation of г is not even a phoneme in Dutch and you have a better equivalent in х. I don't really like it either, but I use it to good effect because for me the old pronunciation of г is much more natural. Although it makes you sound like a Ukrainian :D 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 477 of 522 04 December 2014 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | ||
It's a bit reassuring for me to read the latest set of comments about transliteration and indirectly the perception of English and Russian. A related beef is when I see Russian courses state that it's easier to learn to read aloud in Russian than in English (what's left unsaid is that for a LOT of languages it's easier to learn to read them aloud than English given how fouled up our orthography is). I would turn the tables a bit and argue that it's easier to learn to read aloud in Slovak, Belorussian, Polish, BCMS/SC, Finnish, Turkish or even German or Hungarian than in Russian (not to mention English). For a Slavonic language, Russian spelling is noticeably morphophonemic rather than phonemic.
Not to mention Голландия for Holland. Even something like *Xолландия would be preferable to me in a way like how there's хоккей "hockey" instead of *гоккей (eeeewww). For whatever reason /ɦ/ has been inadmissible for the standard unless you're speaking as locals could in southern Russia, while /x/ is not considered as often as an approximation in transliterating /ɦ/ of other languages as often as I think that it should. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 478 of 522 04 December 2014 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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In Dutch or German transliteration I understand that that is a problem because both /h/
and /x/ are phonemes that need to be treated separately, although /x/ is not very common word-initially in German I think. In Dutch it is, but more commonly in a uvular variant (which is an allophone of the velar! The glottal and velar fricatives are never allophones in Dutch!) In German you have the advantage that /g/ is a phoneme too and corresponds directly to г, but in Dutch this is more complicated because g always means a fricative (which one is dependent on the speaker). I think that people used г historically for it because it corresponds to the old pronunciation of g in Dutch (and coincides with the former/south Russian pronunciation), but the problem is that the strong dialectal development and the dominance of standard Dutch where devoicing and velar/uvular consonants dominate, х always mirrors the correct pronunciation more closely than г which brings in a phoneme that's not even an allophone. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Radioclare Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom timeofftakeoff.com Joined 4581 days ago 689 posts - 1119 votes Speaks: English*, German, Esperanto Studies: Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian | Message 479 of 522 04 December 2014 at 11:46pm | IP Logged | ||
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@tarvos/Chung - You have both lost me now, but thanks for having such an interesting
discussion in my log :D @Serpent - I am intrigued about why Wolverhampton is spelled differently depending on whether it relates to the football club or the town! I listened to the different pronunciations on Forvo when I got home from work.... The first one (dorabora) just sounds plain wrong. The stress is on the wrong syllable for a start. If it didn't say the woman was from the UK, I would have said she sounded Australian. The second one (Rekabek) sounds like she lives in Wolverhampton :) The third one and fourth ones (ratty and pixelforge) sound the best to me and the closest to how I would say it. The fifth one (TopQuark) is the strangest pronunciation I have heard in my life. I've listened to it on repeat about 50 times and the closest I can get to sounding like this myself is to say 'Wolverhempton' so I have had an epiphany and think I now understand why that sort of a-sound would be written as an e in any other language! But I don't think anyone would last long in Wolverhampton with an accent like that :D Re the г/h transliteration, I am curious about how you would write 'Birmingham' in Russian? I pronounce it as "bur-min-gum" normally but when I go abroad I try to pronounce it "bir-ming-ham" in the hope that it makes it easier for people to recognise/understand. I guess if you were writing it in Cyrillic you couldn't have two г's next to each other though? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 480 of 522 05 December 2014 at 12:20am | IP Logged | ||
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The big problem there is that -ng in English is one single sound. Russian does not
have this sound and transliterates it нг regardless. One of the defining features of a Russian accent is that the velar part of the "ng" sound gives off an audible stop. In Russian by putting the g there you effectively already produce an extra sound in that position. In Northern England, "g" is also audibly released at the end of "ng", which is a dialect feature. (I hear many people pronounce "song" f.ex. with an audible g- stop at the end). Russian turns it into Бирмингем. That would corroborate what I said about the Russian inability to pronounce the velar nasal /ng/ correctly (unless they have acquired the sound outside of their native tongue somewhere else). It's not a native Russian phoneme as far as I know. As for two г letters next to each other; I'm not sure it's impossible, just fairly rare? But that's a question better answered by a Russian. Edited by tarvos on 05 December 2014 at 12:24am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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