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"Perfect Pronunciation" | ||
Tags: Greek | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6440 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes  Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 65 of 131 06 December 2007 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Most immigrants I know here are not living in ghettos, myself included. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 66 of 131 06 December 2007 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Slucido,
1) Most immigrants in Canada do not live in ghettos. See Wikipedia for one definition of a ghetto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto Many immigrants choose to live in areas where they may represent 30-40% of the population, but just as many do not live in such areas. In either case it the attitude and actions of the immigrants that will determine how well they pronounce English. 2) We are talking about near-native, barely perceptible accents. Full native pronunciation, just like full native like fluency, is an unrealistic and mostly unachievable, and unnecessary target. 3) People have time for activities other than work and child rearing. They read, watch TV, play sports and engage in other leisure and educational pursuits. If you get a headache after 45 minutes of listening to an MP3 player you are an exception and should not use this method to improve your accent. To judge by your attitude ("I can't do it, nobody can") you are not going to succeed anyway. It is pointless to write off what you think you are unable to achieve, or are unwilling to try to achieve, as a fantasy. You are just confirming why you cannot achieve it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 67 of 131 06 December 2007 at 12:28pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
A learner can be average in his or her abilities, but also in how much information he has access to. If you want to improve your knowledge of grammar, you can walk into an average bookstore and find several good reference grammars and grammar workbooks for major foreign languages. This is not the case with materials to improve one's pronunciation, so it's rather hard to judge merely by looking at a random group of learners if their pronunciation is what it is because of their limited abilities or because no one told them that improving their pronunciation is something that can be approached in a systematic manner. It is an interesting question whether long-term immersion without additional study results in a better grammar and usage or pronunciation for the majority of learners. Edited by frenkeld on 06 December 2007 at 12:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 68 of 131 06 December 2007 at 12:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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The issue is not whether long-term immersion improves language ability. All other things being equal, of course it will. However, it is neither the only way, nor is it guaranteed to bring about significant improvement. That requires actions by the learner.
A deliberate effort to improve pronunciation starts with the will to do so. I have often heard people say that they consider their accent to be part of their culture or personality. Any such attitude will impede improvement in pronunciation. My recommendation for accent improvement 1) imagine your are (whatever language group) 2) listen to a lot of the language, read it, just get more and more used to it. 3) practice repeating while listening, or even talking to yourself. Do not compare. 4) At some point, when you feel like it, practice listening to phrases slowly. Repeat them. Occasionally record yourself to compare. 5) Isolate those sounds and the kind of intonation you have trouble imitating. Work on them. 6) Do not get impatient, It will take time. And keep up your listening. 7) Try to not worry about nor feel self-conscious about your pronunciation.Enjoy the language and you will improve. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 69 of 131 06 December 2007 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I am using the word Ghetto in a broad sense or in a metaphorical way. I mean no full immersion.
I think we are talking about native pronunciation. When native people think the language your are talking is your native language and it's not. I know people who speak Spanish like native speakers, they are not Spanish, but they have been living here for years. That's not a fantasy. I think its achievable if you live in the target country, years,with full immersion, but for a low percentage of people. Is it possible if we don't live in the target language country? Maybe. I only knew one Egyptian years ago who spoke Spanish like a native speaker and he claimed he never visited any Spanish country. Maybe he was lying, but he spoke with perfect Castillian accent. How was it possible? Spanish language was his proffesion.He worked full time with Spanish tourists.
We are talking about the average learner and not about me. I am above the average learner, but my ears are below the average mp3 player user. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 70 of 131 06 December 2007 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I don't think so. I think it's necessary full immersion and drills and grammar and all. I think absolutely all is necessary. Massive input and massive drills (I mean grammar and pronunciations drills). What methods for pronunciation? It seems to work well the shadowing and chorusing methods. Maybe repeating ad nauseam a few sentences. Another method is the "voice impersonator method". Choose someone whose voice you like in your target language and practice this steps: http://www.ehow.com/how_2092934_be-voice-impersonator.html
It is possible to change the step four and to take some workshop about theatre performance. Edited by slucido on 06 December 2007 at 1:31pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Zhuangzi Nonaglot Language Program Publisher Senior Member Canada lingq.com Joined 7029 days ago 646 posts - 688 votes Speaks: English*, French, Japanese, Swedish, Mandarin, Cantonese, German, Italian, Spanish Studies: Russian | Message 71 of 131 06 December 2007 at 1:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I just got off the phone with the technical help person for the local cable provider. The person helping me was from Mainland China. Her accent was slight, her use of words was flawless, her comprehension complete. Her English was pleasant and as good as it needs to be. After having my technical problem solved, I complimented her on her Englishand found out that she had been in Canada 4 years.
Last week I met a man my age from Hong Kong who came here as a university student 40 years ago and had worked in the financial sector fully immersed in English. His accent was awful and phrasing less natural than this technical rep. An anecdote, I agree.But the difference is not aptitude, but attitude. Drills etc. do not matter. It is mind over matter(the brain) that counts.IMHO 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| William Camden Hexaglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6273 days ago 1936 posts - 2333 votes Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Russian, Turkish, French | Message 72 of 131 06 December 2007 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I noted this on another thread but it bears repeating here. The actor Edward G. Robinson was born in Romania and his first language was Yiddish, He emigrated with family members to the USA. He worked to lose his accent and did so, becoming a successful US film actor in the sound era without the possible handicap of a foreign accent. His brothers apparently spoke English with heavy Romanian Jewish accents for the rest of their lives. Edited by William Camden on 06 December 2007 at 2:23pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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