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PMs TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

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emk
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 Message 65 of 451
29 April 2014 at 4:21am | IP Logged 
PeterMollenburg wrote:
I should clarify here that I don't only use courses and word lists, that I have done some reading up to this point, although I wouldn't really class it as extensive. I am hearing you and others that reading is required (perhaps some can get away with not doing it) and I'm not an exception to that.

Yeah, I have no idea whether reading is strictly necessary or not. But personally, I'm a big fan of practical activities: reading books, watching TV, talking to people and occasionally writing. My half-baked theory is that we learn our first languages that way, and that it still helps a lot even when we're adults. That's not to say I'm against courses or dictionaries or anything. :-) But studying is a lot easier when I've already seen stuff a hundred times in context.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
I can use the translated words in the columns like a
built in dictionary of sorts that enables quick translation reference, BUT any of these
new terms discovered and perhaps even referred to in English for it's translation will
ONLY be added to my flashcards entirely in French by taking the French sentence from
the article, examples from a French only dictionary, using pictures as you've shown emk
, fill in the gaps and so on.

Honestly, I don't like typing in sentence cards. In theory, it should serve as a scriptorium exercise, but it's slow and error-prone. Khatzumoto has been encouraging people to use all-digital sentence sources for a while now. This also makes it psychologically easier to delete lousy sentences. :-)

I'm not saying you shouldn't try making sentences by hand, however. It might be a good idea for you, in your circumstances. But if you find that it's becoming a time sink, consider reading an ebook and using the built-in "highlight" function, then exporting everything to a text file.

Also, don't try to learn every unknown word. Some words are so easy that you'll figure them out from context and never forget them; other words are just useless. But there's a chunk of words right in the middle that you'll see over and over again, and which will refuse to make sense or to stick for more than a day. Those words have the biggest payoff.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Looking at the images of this tool, it looks rather handy. I have a few questions regarding this emk. How speedy is it to use is my main question.

Pretty good, actually. I can highlight a sentence on my tablet in a few seconds, and export a book's worth of sentences in a minute or two. Once the sentences are in my program, the work flow goes like this:

1. Highlight an unknown word in the sentence and click "Lookup".
2. (Optional) Switch between dictionaries.
3. Copy and paste a definition or a picture onto the back of the card. (The "word =" bit is prefilled.)
4. Click next.

The most time-consuming part is actually choosing which definition or picture to use. But I don't mind that, because that's actually studying time: I'm trying to puzzle out the French text. This card for chaloupe was a nice example: the word chaloupe includes rowboats, lifeboats and small motorized skiffs. This is the sort of thing that takes me a little while to puzzle out. (I learned this word because it was really common in a book I read, and I couldn't figure out what kind of boat they were talking about.)

PeterMollenburg wrote:
I must mention that I don't use Anki but prefer to use Flashcards Deluxe, I'm guessing you don't'know a lot about this program but perhaps you do in fact know if it's compatible?

You'd probably need to mess around a bit, unfortunately. My tool can export in CSV and JSON format, and a programmer could hook it up to another system pretty easily. But you might want to take a look at readlang, too. That site supports both web pages and books in epub format.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
How long does it take you when not using this program to create an individual card?

This is one of the drawbacks with sentence cards, actually: If you don't have good tools, they take too long to make. You have to mark them, type them in, find definitions, switch back and forth between windows, etc.

I've given you a lot of details about my own personal workflow in this post. But that was only because I wanted to keep things concrete, and not because I think anybody should imitate all the fiddly little details. (I change them all the time, anyway!) Feel free to pilfer any ideas which seem promising and ignore the rest.

Edited by emk on 29 April 2014 at 4:29am

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PeterMollenburg
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 Message 66 of 451
29 April 2014 at 1:28pm | IP Logged 
emk wrote:

studying is a lot easier when I've already seen stuff a hundred times in context.


Sounds logical to me :)

emk wrote:

Honestly, I don't like typing in sentence cards. In theory, it should serve as a
scriptorium exercise, but it's slow and error-prone. Khatzumoto has been encouraging
people to use all-digital sentence sources for a while now. This also makes it
psychologically easier to delete lousy sentences. :-)

...consider reading an ebook and using the built-in "highlight" function, then
exporting everything to a text file


All digital sentence sources meaning copy and paste from e-books as you've suggested
right?


emk wrote:

Also, don't try to learn every unknown word. Some words are so easy that you'll figure
them out from context and never forget them; other words are just useless. But there's
a chunk of words right in the middle that you'll see over and over again, and which
will refuse to make sense or to stick for more than a day. Those words have the biggest
payoff.


Okay so with 7200 flashcards in my deck i was adding EVERY SINGLE WORD I ever came
across that wasn't previously entered into my deck. Why? Well I wanted to get an idea
of my vocab size in the process. So do you think it would serve me well to start a new
French only deck and then to ONLY enter those words that i'm struggling to recall as
you've mentioned, and forget the rest because I'll basically come across them enough in
context or figure them out anyway right?

I'm repeating what you're saying I think, I do this a lot as I look for reassurance
before proceeding. It often comes across as lack of intelligence or confidence, perhaps
it is, but in the end that's just me. I'm liking your suggestions tho emk and willing
to proceed by adapting your methods and seeing how I go with it.




emk wrote:

Pretty good, actually. I can highlight a sentence on my tablet in a few seconds, and
export a book's worth of sentences in a minute or two. Once the sentences are in my
program, the work flow goes like this:

1. Highlight an unknown word in the sentence and click "Lookup".
2. (Optional) Switch between dictionaries.
3. Copy and paste a definition or a picture onto the back of the card. (The "word ="
bit is prefilled.)
4. Click next.

The most time-consuming part is actually choosing which definition or picture to use.
But I don't mind that, because that's actually studying time: I'm trying to puzzle out
the French text. This card for chaloupe was a nice example: the word
chaloupe includes rowboats, lifeboats and small motorized skiffs. This is the
sort of thing that takes me a little while to puzzle out. (I learned this word because
it was really common in a book I read, and I couldn't figure out what kind of boat they
were talking about.)


Before I continue, I just want to mention I can import pictures with some degree of
ease, although it involves a few too many clicks in and out of programs than I would
like. However I came to the decision today after a quick mess around with pictures in
my flashcard app that I prefer definitions, examples, 'fill in the gaps' as opposed to
pictures, as pictures involve no use of language, so I'd rather use language (after all
that's what i'm learning to use) to infer meaning of a French word....

Getting back to your tool/program. Is this something I could use on an iOS platform? I
have many many ebooks in iBooks that I can view either on iPhone or iPad. I really do
not want to ditch iOS since my whole setup - dictionaries, flashcards, audio, pdfs,
books are all on there... so changing to a new platform isn't really an option unless I
want to pour a lot of money down the drain and then some with a new platform. I know
you're not suggesting I do that, but I guess i'm mentioning it as I'd like to know if I
can set up a similar method to yours on my iOS devices. I can utilise a built in French
only dictionary for quick look up of words and select a sentence that way and paste
into my flaschards all within my iOS device(s). But i'm still curious about this
program of yours, it seems like an extra step- like we're adding a middle-man here so
to speak. A little further clarification on it's usefulness would be nice emk, and
perhaps more description of the actual program - name, platform, price and whether such
thing would work on my apple devices[/QUOTE]

emk wrote:

You'd probably need to mess around a bit, unfortunately. My tool can export in CSV and
JSON format, and a programmer could hook it up to another system pretty easily. But you
might want to take a look at readlang, too. That site
supports both web pages and books in epub format.


All my iBooks are in .epub format I believe, so that may work if apple isn't too greedy
and these iBooks are open to be used elsewhere (outside an iOS device)- not sure how
that would work- i'm ok-ish with technology, but do get left behind sometimes. As for
readlang i've signed up for it but tried it once i think and can't remember much about
it. I've recently signed up to a lot of handy little things like that but in my busy
daily life and commitment to completing courses have had little time to really use such
things. However if it makes studying easier... and adds to the usefulness of a
reading/flashcard set up like your own then i'd be willing to at least try it :)
[/QUOTE]

emk wrote:

I've given you a lot of details about my own personal workflow in this post. But that
was only because I wanted to keep things concrete, and not because I think anybody
should imitate all the fiddly little details. (I change them all the time, anyway!)
Feel free to pilfer any ideas which seem promising and ignore the rest.


I really appreciate the details of your personal approach to study emk. Thank you. As
for changing them- being a chameleon so to speak in life is a plus. They found in some
study (they find a lot of things I know) that those who lived long active lives with a
good quality of life well into older age were those who were able to adapt to life's
changes. So although sometimes I feel some changes I've seen in my life might actually
dumb us down, others can be used to our advantage. Language learning is certainly like
that, if you adapt new methods, evolve, and are prepared to self reflect and even, dare
I say it, let go of stubborn attitudes, perhaps we'll get there in the end with a smile
on our face :)

So this is my plan:
1. Begin now (not later as i had suggested) aiming to study for at least 2 hours a day
(life changes coming up might make that difficult, but i will endeavour to try and to
at least be consistent).
2. An hour of reading a day, an hour of coursework (note other methods will be used
more sparingly also).
3.start a new flashcard deck only adding words I really cannot work out their meaning
(good luck to me- the pedagogical stubborn one!)
ie STOP adding every word.
4. Use French only in my flashcard deck(s)
ie STOP using English.
5. Words requiring entry into my flashcard deck(s) I shal select/ highlight phrases
from the context I find these words in, in their electronic sources and paste them into
my flashcard deck(s) as examples of the words in use in their natural context... and/or
provide French only definitions.
6. Those that I cannot copy/paste as they are from paper sources I shall simply type
them in as I have been doing, but in French only
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emk
Diglot
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 Message 67 of 451
29 April 2014 at 3:15pm | IP Logged 
PeterMollenburg wrote:
All digital sentence sources meaning copy and paste from e-books as you've suggested right?

Yup. It saves a lot of time, and I can't make any data-entry mistakes. As with most things, though, I'm not too strict about this: if I see a really awesome sentence in a printed book, I might type it in.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
So do you think it would serve me well to start a new
French only deck and then to ONLY enter those words that i'm struggling to recall as
you've mentioned, and forget the rest because I'll basically come across them enough in
context or figure them out anyway right?

Yeah, if you read a lot, you'll figure out lots of words out from context. Sometimes this will be an "Ah ha" moment, and sometimes you'll learn the words without ever realizing it.

But as you read, you'll notice certain annoying words that keep popping up, but which refuse to make any sense. Those are the words which benefit the most from flashcard software. So when you see a word and find yourself asking, "What does that word mean, anyway?", consider adding it. But if a word mostly makes sense, you can leave it alone and just keep reading, and have faith that you'll understand it better each time you see it. Similarly, if you've never seen a word before, you can usually let it go: If it's important, you'll see it again soon enough.

And remember: You can get quite a lot of benefit just by reading, without using flashcard software at all. Flashcards are nice optional boost. Just by itself, reading will help turn French that you can "puzzle out" into French that's completely second nature.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
I'm liking your suggestions tho emk and willing
to proceed by adapting your methods and seeing how I go with it.

Feel free to swipe ideas, but please make them your own. I've change my methods all the time, and I even use different methods for French and Egyptian.

I've gotten flamed for this before, but let me give you the rules of thumb I use to choose methods:

1. Am I paying close attention to something in French? (A conversion, a book, an essay that I'm writing, etc.)
2. Am I enjoying myself?
3. Do I frequently encounter the language in its natural state?

If the answer to these three questions is "Yes," then I assume that things are probably going to work out OK. Now, (2) isn't strictly essential, and (3) is optional in the beginning, though personally I really need it starting around B1 at the latest.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Getting back to your tool/program. Is this something I could use on an iOS platform? I have many many ebooks in iBooks that I can view either on iPhone or iPad.

The card-making part of my program is web based. If you send me your email address via PM, I'll get you set up. It's in a private beta right now, and the basic features are free. (The advanced features actually cost me money every time somebody uses them, so those are only free to beta testers. Being a beta tester is pretty easy, though: You try it out, and you send me email explaining what you found frustrating.)

The only thing you really need to capture sentences is an epub reader that can export your highlights to a file, typically once you finish the book. (I don't like stopping when I'm reading; it breaks the flow.) To make the actual cards, though, I recommend using a regular computer with a browser—it's much more efficient to copy and paste definitions on a real computer.

But please keep in mind, there's no particular reason why my software would be best for you. You might prefer readlang, or JC Identity's iPad app, or one of the other products in this space. My program is mostly optimized for people who want to use regular ebook readers and Anki, and who don't want to do all their reading in a specialized application. But some of the specialized applications are quite nice!

And as I mentioned before, to a great extent, you don't need any of this software. You could just pick up a fun paperback, read it, and skip over any bits that don't make sense. The pop-up dictionaries, the ability to save sentences to Anki—all of this is secondary. It's nice to be able to look up a word with a tap of your finger, or to be able to export an interesting sentence to flash card software for later review. But the real benefits of reading come from the absolute basics: Reading a lot, and staying in contact with French.

It can be fun to mess around with technology and study methods. But if you ever find yourself saying, "Well, before I can start reading, I need to change my flashcard software, decide whether to use pictures or written definitions, and find precisely the right reading material," well, it's probably time to just go pick up a book and start reading. :-)

PeterMollenburg wrote:
1. Begin now (not later as i had suggested) aiming to study for at least 2 hours a day
(life changes coming up might make that difficult, but i will endeavour to try and to
at least be consistent).

I like this plan. What you'll find, I think, is that the studying and the reading will reinforce each other: You'll studying something in your course, and you'll suddenly notice it everywhere in your reading. Or you'll see something a hundred times in your reading, and when it appears in your course, you'll say, "Hey! So that's how that works."

Also, keep an eye on Napoleon's log. Since the beginning of the year, he's been getting really into native materials, and he's making crazy amounts of progress lately. Tastyonions went through much the same process when he was getting started. It's fun watching people's abilities expand at such a crazy rate.
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Jeffers
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United Kingdom
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Studies: Hindi, Ancient Greek, French, Sanskrit, German

 
 Message 68 of 451
29 April 2014 at 3:54pm | IP Logged 
That all looks like good stuff. Just be careful you don't get so wrapped up in the
process of making cards that you're not doing much reading/studying!

Peter, have you considered trying the Super Challenge? It seems like a huge task to read
100 books and watch 100 films. But if you work it out, it's just 8.2 pages per day and
14.7 minutes watching (or listening) per day. Which just goes to show that a little bit
every day adds up to a large accomplishment, and that's what the Super Challenge is all
about. Plus, it will be fun to share progress and ideas.
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PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
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Speaks: English*
Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 69 of 451
30 April 2014 at 12:29am | IP Logged 
Jeffers wrote:
I thought I would comment here, so as not to take your own log off
topic.

There is a lot of advice against using L1 when learning L2, and a lot of it makes
sense. However, I would like to make a few comments in support of L1/L2 flashcards.
The usual argument is that people find that when they come across a word in their L2,
it always brings the L1 word to mind. This is true on the first few instances, but if
you read/listen/watch a lot, this will fade the more you come across the word. The
student who spends over half their time learning vocabulary will have a problem, but
the student who uses a lot of native material as well will find that this "own-
language-flashback" will fade with use. It is the same with any learning material. If
you used Michel Thomas, then the first several times you come across "je suis", you
will remember that he said it is "a sweet word". But once you've come across it a lot,
you'll stop getting Michel Thomas flashbacks.

None of this says that L2 only flashcards aren't good. So why am I sticking with L1/L2
cards? Because they are simple to make and quick to review. I can add relatively more
words into my passive knowledge, and spend more time on reading, watching and
listening, during which I will come across those words more and more often. Except
this month, when I was adding 25 new cards a day for the Learning Based Challenge, I
usually only spend 15 minutes at most on anki. But that time spent makes it easier to
access other material, and that other material reinforces what I've learnt by
flashcard.

To summarize my main point: a particular method of making flashcards isn't going to be
a silver bullet for your language study. If you spend most of your time studying
vocabulary cards, then they should probably be L2 only, use pictures, etc. But if
flashcards are a small fraction of your study time, then don't sweat it too much.


Jeffers wrote:
That all looks like good stuff. Just be careful you don't get so
wrapped up in the
process of making cards that you're not doing much reading/studying!

Peter, have you considered trying the Super Challenge? It seems like a huge task to
read
100 books and watch 100 films. But if you work it out, it's just 8.2 pages per day and
14.7 minutes watching (or listening) per day. Which just goes to show that a little
bit
every day adds up to a large accomplishment, and that's what the Super Challenge is all
about. Plus, it will be fun to share progress and ideas.


Hi Jeffers,

I really appreciate your comments, thanks Jeffers. I actually spend 10 to 20 minutes
per hour of study or hour of reading on my flashcards. ie for each hour of study I
actually use a course or read for 40 to 50 minutes and use flashcards for the first ten
to 20 mins. By 'use' I mean review vocabularly. During the 40-50 min reading/study time
I will add new words I come across to my flashcards which will be reviewed during the
10-20 min of flashcard vocab review time. I do it this way because I don't actually
like flashcards that much but know I need to review vocabularly. Once upon a time I
used to write in unfamiliar words at the tops and sides of my pages in whatever course
i'd be using. I'd then have to flick through some pages each morning before studying to
review new vocab. Flashcards are therefore neater, faster to make and more versatile in
terms of using SRS and other fancy things plus editing. Flashcards aren't my favourite
thing, nor is reading a great deal. I'm just finding that they get in the way, but I
guess ANY kind of learning will have stumbling blocks including not using flaschards at
all which would mean more stumbling through reading since deliberate isolated
memorisation of words would not have occurred via FC's.

You've sown a seed of doubt into me this morning Jeffers, which isn't necessarily a bad
thing. One thing we all seem to agree on here is reading- it would serve me well (most
likely) to do more of it, and that I am comitted to. Not so sure about the super
challenge, not ready for that just yet. But when it comes to the flashcards, i'm now a
little hesitant on the shift to French only. Any other thoughts anyone?
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PeterMollenburg
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 Message 70 of 451
30 April 2014 at 3:11am | IP Logged 
I'm quoting myself here from napoleon's log where I learned of the death of Pierre Capretz...

napoleon's
log


PeterMollenburg wrote:
napoleon wrote:
Quote:

Friday, April 4, 2014
Pierre Capretz, a former French professor at Yale and a world-renowned leader in French language teaching,
died in Aix-en-Provence, France on Tuesday. He was 89.

I was saddened to hear of capretz-dies/">Pierre Capretz's passing away language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8153&get=last#499277" >here. May his soul find peace.


That is sad... What an awesome French language course he created! What a great promoter of French
internationally too! RIP Pierre. I love French in Action!

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PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
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Speaks: English*
Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 71 of 451
30 April 2014 at 4:57am | IP Logged 
emk wrote:


So when you see a word and find yourself asking, "What does that word mean, anyway?", consider
adding it. But if a word mostly makes sense, you can leave it alone and just keep reading, and have faith that
you'll understand it better each time you see it. Similarly, if you've never seen a word before, you can usually
let it go: If it's important, you'll see it again soon enough.

And remember: You can get quite a lot of benefit just by reading, without using flashcard software at all.
Flashcards are nice optional boost. Just by itself, reading will help turn French that you can "puzzle out" into
French that's completely second nature.


I don't think I can fully adapt to this strategy. While using my French learning mags which are almost midway
or some kind of hybrid between a course and going dictionary/help free: I think I will add most new words with
these magazines, but other general French reading I will add no more than one new word/expression per
page.

emk wrote:


But please keep in mind, there's no particular reason why my software would be best for you. You might
prefer readlang, or JC Identity's iPad app, or one of the other products in this space. My program is mostly
optimized for people who want to use regular ebook readers and Anki, and who don't want to do all their
reading in a specialized application. But some of the specialized applications are quite nice!

And as I mentioned before, to a great extent, you don't need any of this software. You could just pick up a fun
paperback, read it, and skip over any bits that don't make sense. The pop-up dictionaries, the ability to save
sentences to Anki—all of this is secondary. It's nice to be able to look up a word with a tap of your finger,
or to be able to export an interesting sentence to flash card software for later review. But the real benefits of
reading come from the absolute basics: Reading a lot, and staying in contact with French.

It can be fun to mess around with technology and study methods. But if you ever find yourself saying, "Well,
before I can start reading, I need to change my flashcard software, decide whether to use pictures or written
definitions, and find precisely the right reading material," well, it's probably time to just go pick up a book and
start reading. :-)


You must have suspected I was up to my old habit yesterday (procrastinating).... Fortunately later in the day I
took it upon myself to state that I would continue to look into tweaking my study methods only after studying...
so I've already done an hour of French today, no Dutch yet tho but I'm not at home as appointments and such
so some spare moments here and there... I'll look into the tech options and tnx for the offer on the tool too, I'll
be in touch in that regard

emk wrote:

Also, keep an eye on TID=33544&TPN=14#498595">Napoleon's log. Since the beginning of the year, he's been getting really
into native materials, and he's making crazy amounts of progress lately. Tastyonions went through much the
same process when he was getting started. It's fun watching people's abilities expand at such a crazy rate.


I will check it out,
thanks heaps emk!!
2 persons have voted this message useful



PeterMollenburg
Senior Member
AustraliaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 3953 days ago

821 posts - 1273 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: FrenchB1

 
 Message 72 of 451
30 April 2014 at 11:01am | IP Logged 
Here's an update of my study hours so far this year. Watching TV/film (represented by 'R') I am currently
viewing as passive and not counting it in my accumulated hours. Again my study hours of French decreased,
but Dutch increased. Adding the 2 languages together the last 2 months have been stable at around 70hrs of
study time.
----------------------------------
Légende / Legend
C =      Cours (Courses)
A =     Audio seulement (Audio only)
L =      Lecture (Reading)
R =      Regarder ; films français etc
               (Watching; French movies etc)
----------------------------------
French:

Heures d'etudes 2014
(Hours of Study 2014)

Date:         30/04/14
Hrs,min:      C210,06 A86,40
                  L22,30    E0,30
Total:          &n bsp;       319,46
                              (+ R32)
Jours (days):     120
Moy. de l'an:     2,39 (3,05 in maart/March)     
(Yearly average)
----------------------------------
             Les mois:
--------
avril:
(April)   C34   A12,35 L1
Total:   47,35 (+ R20)
Moy. du mois: 1,35
(Monthly average)
----------------------------------
mars:
(March)   C24,30   A24,45 L11 E0,30
Total:          &n bsp;           60,45 (+ R9)
Moy. du mois: 2,05
(Monthly average)       
----------------------------------
février:
(February) C49,55 A21,30 L7
Total: 78.25 (+ R3)
Moy. du mois: 2,48
(Monthly average)       
----------------------------------
janvier:
(January) C101,41 A27.50 L3,30
Total: 133,01
Moy. du mois: 4,17
(Monthly average)
----------------------------------
----------------------------------
Dutch:

Studie-uren 2014
(Hours of Study 2014)

Het begin
(Commenced):   20/3/14
Datum (date):   30/04/14
Uren,minuten:    C33
(hours,min)
Totaal (total):   33
Dagen (days): 42
Gemiddelde per dag
(daily average): 47min
----------------------------------
             De maanden
             (the months):
---------
april:
(April): C23
Totaal: 23
(total)       
Maandgemiddelde
(monthly average): 46min
----------------------------------
maart:
(March): C10
Totaal
(total): 10
----------------------------------

Edited by PeterMollenburg on 30 April 2014 at 11:12am



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