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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 73 of 812 04 September 2013 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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беда в том, что, очень часто на разговорном языке, люди говорят <<von der/dem/den>>
вместо <des/der>>. Для Вон надо употреблятьса дательный падеж. Problem is in Russian you might say something else. I never got when you use "у тебя" and when "тебе". @Josquin - hence достаточно редко, not никогда Edited by tarvos on 04 September 2013 at 12:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4232 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 74 of 812 04 September 2013 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Josquin, thank you for the fast answer :)
tarvos, то есть, в немецком пытаются уклониться от использования родительного падежа, употребляя von - предлог, который требует дательный падеж? Speaking about у тебя and тебе... In English here's no difference, "you" in both cases. But у тебя is somewhat describing a still situation: "You have a cat" - У тебя есть кот whereas тебе is more of an action: "I give you a cat" - Я даю тебе кота. Please tell me if that explanation is useful or not :) Edited by Via Diva on 04 September 2013 at 1:13pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 75 of 812 04 September 2013 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
Пожалуйста!
Это правильно, но существуют некоторые предлоги, которые требуют родительный падеж, например wegen или aufgrund. Von употребляется только, если говорится о владении: Das Haus meines Vaters --> Das Haus von meinem Vater (Дом моего отца) Edited by Josquin on 04 September 2013 at 1:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 76 of 812 04 September 2013 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
That I get, but in the context of спрашивать/спросить... какая разница? @Josquin - yes, but wegen and aufgrund don't really have much to do with possession. Sometimes prepositions demand a certain case and there really isn't a good explanation why. Most cases of the use of the genitive (without a preposition) can be rephrased as using von most of the time. That leaves the moments where you use wegen, aufgrund, and a few others that take the genitive, but in my experience those prepositions usually sound formal and paraphrasing them is also possible. But yes, of course it's still present. It's just not used a WHOLE LOT. Edited by tarvos on 04 September 2013 at 2:16pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Via Diva Diglot Senior Member Russian Federation last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4232 days ago 1109 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek | Message 77 of 812 04 September 2013 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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tarvos, if i got the question right...
Я спрашиваю тебя / Я спрашиваю у тебя - I do not see much of a difference... But you can't mix up у тебя и тебе when asking. There are informal cases like Тебе чай [сделать] с сахаром или без? - Would you like tea with or without sugar? but there is no way to change it to у тебя unless you want to ask about something that already happened У тебя чай с сахаром или без? - Is your tea with sugar or not? or, more naturally, Did I make tea for you with or without sugar? Edited by Via Diva on 04 September 2013 at 2:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 78 of 812 04 September 2013 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I said "von" is only used when talking about possession, not the genitive itself. Some prepositions in German (and they're getting more) require the genitive. In this case, you can't substitute the genitive with a "von" construction. This is only possible when talking about possession. Of course, the prepositions requiring the genitive don't have anything to do with possession. Anyway, Germans often don't agree on which case to use after which preposition and you may find a genitive where a dative is required and vice versa. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 79 of 812 04 September 2013 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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No, I understand that perfectly. Of course the genitive is used after these
prepositions, hence why the genitive exists in spoken and written German. It's just sufficiently rare to warrant less attention than the Dativ/Akkusativ. I personally am terrible with the Genitiv because I always used paraphrases to get around the genitive. The point is that there is usually a way to avoid the genitive, although sometimes you can't. And the common phrasing for possession (which is also the most common instance where you could use a genitive) is avoided with von. This is parallelled in Dutch, by the way, where the old way to form a possessive was by using a genitive (and it is used in fixed expressions or to avoid repeating "van" all the time). The difference is we no longer uses cases, so prepositions don't demand a genitive. Edited by tarvos on 04 September 2013 at 4:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4842 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 80 of 812 04 September 2013 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, you can avoid the genitive in spoken language (although you won't sound very educated), but there's no chance to get around it in written German. Edited by Josquin on 04 September 2013 at 4:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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