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Ellasevia’s TAC 2011: Team Ohana | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6701 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 265 of 392 07 June 2011 at 1:53am | IP Logged | |||||
That's exactly what they do.
I won't bet that I can get all those aorist and passive forms right, but to learn at least the aorist I found out that it normally only is necessary to add one consonant in my wordlists (for instance 'answer': απαντώ (σ)) - but I take that information from my dictionaries, not from conversations (for obvious reasons) - and not even from texts. As for the passive forms I have been less systematic in my study methods. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Kappa Groupie Japan Joined 5518 days ago 99 posts - 172 votes | Message 266 of 392 08 June 2011 at 11:18am | IP Logged | |||||
You succeeded in making me want to learn Persian more and more (and Hebrew as well.)
And I just thought this might interest you. Have fun (if you are still in Greece. Well, have fun no matter where you are!) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Polyglot_gr Super Polyglot Newbie Greece Joined 5093 days ago 29 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Greek*, FrenchC2, EnglishC2, GermanC2, Italian, SpanishC2, DutchC1, Swedish, PortugueseC1, Romanian, Polish, Catalan, Russian, Hungarian | Message 267 of 392 08 June 2011 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | |||||
I am not surprised. Forming the passive voice can be tricky even for native Greeks. You see, there are some verbs that are conjugated like passive verbs but have an active meaning, i.e. they are transitive! How do you put them into passive voice? Let's see an example. Αυτή η μονάδα επεξεργάζεται αστικά λύματα. This plant processes sewage. If you ask native Greeks to turn this sentence into passive voice, most people will probably respond: Αστικά λύματα επεξεργάζονται από αυτή τη μονάδα.* This is a horrible mistake, since "επεξεργάζονται" is a transitive verb! In cases like this, you have to paraphrase. There are no exact rules on how to do this. Each one of these "passive-active" verbs is a special case. I would form the above sentence as: Αστικά λύματα υφίστανται επεξεργασία από αυτή τη μονάδα. Sewage is subjected to process by this plant. The positive side is that passive voice is avoided in colloquial speech, so you don’ have to worry very much about it. E.g. Greeks never say Μου δόθηκε ένα δώρο.* I was given a present. We always say: Μου έδωσαν ένα δώρο. They gave me a present. Edited by Polyglot_gr on 08 June 2011 at 2:26pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6140 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 268 of 392 10 June 2011 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
Quarter 2: Greek 
Weeks 22-23: May 28 – June 10 Total Study Time This Week: 20.5 hours Total Study Time in 2011: 325 hours Average Study Time This Week: 1.46 hours/day Average Study Time in 2011: 2.02 hours/day 
Well, here's my combined update for the past two weeks finally. I've skipped the update for Week 21 because I did nothing at all that week. I've been in Greece since May 28th (and will be here until June 27th) so naturally almost all of the time that I've spent so far has been on Greek. However, none of this was truly study time, but rather just being immersed in the language through conversing (or more often listening to other people conversing), reading, and...yeah that's about it. I have spent a bit of time on some other languages in the meantime but nothing very substantial. Honestly I'm still trying to just refresh my mental condition which was in a state of crisis around the time of my departure, so that will account for the lack of any real studying in the past couple weeks. I'm making progress and have begun to feel better – a couple days ago I even ventured out onto the beach to dance around and sing, and make a fool of myself in general. Let's just hope that this positive trend continues and that I'll be more ready to do some studying by the time I go back to the US, or better yet, here so that I can justify having brought all these books with me.  ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΑ
Total Study Time This Week: 20 hours Total Study Time in 2011: 42.5 hours - Immersion in Greece Before I say anything else, of course I've spent more than these few hours doing things related to Greek in the almost two weeks that I've been here. I've been rather strict in counting these things as study time though, and am only counting the hours if I'm completely immersed in the language and have my full attention on it. If I notice that while listening to a conversation at a mealtime, my attention wavers and I stop paying attention, I'll stop my timer because I'm not actually being immersed anymore. This also means that I don't count it when I'm just talking with my grandparents or hearing them talk, because even though at least half of the time we speak in Greek (or at least Greeklish) there is still English involved so it's not full immersion, and besides it's too complicated to figure out how much time I spend on that anyways. So there you go.  Deutsch
Total Study Time This Week: 0.5 hours Total Study Time in 2011: 27 hours - A very tiny bit of writing/reading Earlier this week (or maybe last, I forget) I sat down to write a letter to a friend in German before deciding that it felt weird to write such things in German and switched back to English. I also had started to read out of my German Harry Potter book, but I kept getting interrupted so I stopped. A very impressive two weeks for German indeed. OTHER @Teango: Thank you for the encouragement. In my case, instead of falling back on English I just fall back on not talking at all, which is my natural tendency anyways. I have spoken a little more and I've gotten a little better, or so I hope. I find that part of my problem could be that I simply don't know what to say when I'm asked certain questions (ah, the joys of not understanding basic social interaction) so I get flustered and then my response is completely mangled as a result. Conversely, when I had a response prepared ahead of time for a particular question (and not necessarily in Greek) I could usually articulate my thoughts without a problem. @Solfrid Cristin: What you might have to understand about me is that I'm a perfectionist, so I have to focus on my shortcomings and mistakes if I hope to get anywhere and improve. If there are still errors to be had, that's not good enough for me. It has to be perfect. To change the subject slightly, do your daughters worship you? If not they should and you can tell them I said so. I wish my mother would offer to take me to a foreign country if I learned 100 words of the language spoken there... @Élan: Thanks for dropping by! I hope you enjoyed your trip to Bali and that your meeting with your in-laws went well. Oh, and to comment on what you mentioned in your log today, a great big congratulations on your upcoming wedding! Yay! @Iversen: I suppose I should have thought about that strategy while I was struggling through learning the aorist forms for the verbs. I guess my method worked too though, namely to just give up and hope that through enough exposure the patterns will make themselves clear, which they thankfully have. Now when I speak or write I just use whatever sounds right to me, which is of course only possible with plenty of exposure so it's good that I have family that speaks Greek and that I hear it regularly at home. @Kappa: Thanks for stopping by and for that link. I'm afraid my Japanese isn't quite good enough yet to read that without trouble but I was able to gather that it's about the difference in usage between 届く and 着く so I'd assume that the way I wrote that sentence about the package I should have used 届く? I think I took that sentence directly out of my book though, so I'm not sure. @Polyglot_gr: Thank you for the explanation. Yes, those passive-active verbs are rather annoying. Just last night I was wondering how you would say “it is needed” (referring to a thing that is needed, not something that you need to do since you could use πρέπει for that) Greek since “to need” (χρειάζομαι) is one such pesky verb. I thought that maybe you could use a construction using “είναι ανάγκη” but that seems wrong as well. And are you sure that people avoid the passive in colloquial speech? I'm hearing it all the time between my relatives and friends of my grandparents, obviously not in the kind of context you gave in that last example, but I'm hearing it nonetheless. The example that comes to mind right now is when my grandmother was complaining about the priest at her church in the US doing the readings entirely in English and not Greek, so she said something like “Αφού το Ευαγγέλιο γράφτηκε στα Ελληνικά θα έπρεπε να διαβαστεί στην αρχική γλώσσα.” Something that I myself said to my cousin earlier in the week regarding Le Petit Prince, I think, was “Το βιβλίο έχει μεταφραστεί σε πολλές ξένες γλώσσες.” EDIT: We went into town last night after I posted this so I had some last minute immersion time to add. Edited by ellasevia on 28 June 2011 at 4:28pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Polyglot_gr Super Polyglot Newbie Greece Joined 5093 days ago 29 posts - 64 votes Speaks: Greek*, FrenchC2, EnglishC2, GermanC2, Italian, SpanishC2, DutchC1, Swedish, PortugueseC1, Romanian, Polish, Catalan, Russian, Hungarian | Message 269 of 392 10 June 2011 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, the verb χρειάζομαι can be transitive, but it can also be intransitive!
Χρειάζεται υπομονή για να περάσει κανείς τις εξετάσεις Patience is needed in order to succeed in the exams Ξέρω ότι χρειάζομαι στην εταιρεία, γι’ αυτό ζήτησα αύξηση Even better: Ξέρω ότι είμαι απαραίτητος στην εταιρεία, γι’ αυτό ζήτησα αύξηση I know that I am necessary in the company, that's why I asked for a pay rise Note that this verb has no active voice. These verbs are called deponent verbs (αποθετικά ρήματα). Let’s see some more deponent verbs and the bypasses that are used to form the passive voice. Ο αστυνομικός υποψιάστηκε τον ταμία ότι καταχράστηκε τα χρήματα The policeman suspected the cashier of having embezzled the money Ο ταμίας κίνησε τις υποψίες του αστυνομικού ότι καταχράστηκε τα χρήματα The cashier was suspected by the policeman of having embezzled the money Στις χώρες του τρίτου κόσμου διάφορες εταιρείες εκμεταλλεύονται τα παιδιά In third world countries various companies exploit children Στις χώρες του τρίτου κόσμου τα παιδιά γίνονται αντικείμενο εκμετάλλευσης από διάφορες εταιρείες In third world countries children are exploited by various companies Αυτή η λέσχη δέχτηκε το Γιάννη ως πλήρες μέλος This club accepted John as full member Ο Γιάννης έγινε δεκτός από αυτή τη λέσχη ως πλήρες μέλος John was accepted by this club as full member Passive voice is not forbidden in colloquial speech, it just sounds a bit pompous. A person around your age would say: Αφού το Ευαγγέλιο το γράψανε στα Ελληνικά, θα έπρεπε να το διαβάζουμε στην ορίτζιναλ γλώσσα. Το βιβλίο το έχουν μεταφράσει σε πολλές γλώσσες. In general, I would say that you should not be afraid of making mistakes. Greeks do not expect third generation migrants to speak Greek perfectly! By the way, have you already got suntanned? 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6140 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 270 of 392 11 June 2011 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Polyglot_gr, ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ για τις εξηγήσεις, τώρα καταλαβαίνω.
And yes, according to my parents who just arrived here today, I have by some miracle gotten suntanned. Usually I skip that stage entirely and go straight to burning. My mother told me that I look less like a vampire or a cadaver now, so I guess that's a good thing... Edited by ellasevia on 11 June 2011 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5332 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 271 of 392 11 June 2011 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Being at a vampire convention right now I actually agree with the current trend which is that vampires are
cool. Remember that when the tan goes :-) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ellasevia Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2011 Senior Member Germany Joined 6140 days ago 2150 posts - 3229 votes Speaks: English*, German, Croatian, Greek, French, Spanish, Russian, Swedish, Portuguese, Turkish, Italian Studies: Catalan, Persian, Mandarin, Japanese, Romanian, Ukrainian | Message 272 of 392 13 June 2011 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
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[If this post sounds differently worded than usual, that's because I shamelessly copied it, with some minor changes, straight out of an email I wrote to a friend on Saturday. I didn't feel like writing all of this again though, and I think I covered the idea well enough then so there you go.]
I have just gotten what is probably a veeeeeery dangerous idea into my head regarding my motivation for studying lately, but it seems promising. I'm just wondering if the possible benefits, which are not definitive, will outweigh the drawbacks of the idea which are for sure. However, at this point I'm willing to try anything (that is, if it doesn't require too much effort on my part) to get back into this study routine which I've fallen out of. Before I actually get around to telling you what this idea is, let me taunt you and lead you around a little more. I had similar problems getting motivated to do any studying around the end of 2010 and ended up doing almost nothing for the entire month of December, particularly toward the end. However, wasn't it strange how I managed to be so motivated suddenly at the beginning of January? That's probably due in part to the whole "new year, new start" thing, but if my theory is true, it's also because I had 1-2 new languages (depending on if we're counting Dutch as new since I had already been working on it before) to work on which I was very excited about, which then overflowed into the rest of my studies. SO, I think what I need to jump-start my studies again is a nice new language project to get excited about. And not something anticlimactic like Indonesian where I had no real motivation for the language -- I need a new language which I know I love already and have been wanting to work on for a long time. I thought originally of reintroducing Polish, but as much as I'd like to I don't want to get it confused with Russian again. So the language I've selected for if I decide to do this is unrelated to anything else I'm studying (not even Indo-European) and I have had a strong, continuous desire to work on it for about two years, so I know that it's not just another fleeting obsession which I'm so prone to. The problem is that this language is rather challenging and I'm afraid that it would take away from my other language studies, aside from the fact that it's adding another language which would look embarrassingly counterproductive given the purge that I've just done. However, if I don't do this, my other languages could end up suffering even more because I might just leave them stagnating like I've done in the past couple months. So I'm very conflicted about this. Actually, no. I think after having written all of this out and organized my thoughts on the matter I've pretty much decided that I'm going to go along with the idea. I'm actually really excited for the prospect of finally starting on this language already. Oh, and I haven't mentioned which language it is yet, have I? Let's have a short round of applause and welcome FINNISH to my studies section! EDIT: I forgot to mention that my adding Finnish is strictly an experimental side-project and meant to give a boost to my motivation for everything else. If I find that having it along with my other languages is too much stress, I'll drop it for now so that I can give it the attention it deserves when I do have the time for it and so that I don't create any negative associations with this language, since I really do like it. Edited by ellasevia on 23 June 2011 at 9:18am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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