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Best Method or More Time ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6654 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes  Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 169 of 430 30 April 2008 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Maybe you just like arguing.
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| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5906 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 170 of 430 30 April 2008 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Out of this thread as I said, but I am a cyclist too, so I come and leave again.
First of all, he didn't overtrain then (by definition). And he most definitely had a method, a winning one.
Now you are contradicting SLucido. They excel (at their level!) because they optimize the small amounts of time they have. His idea is opposite: how you train is not important, as long as you spend many hours on the saddle.
All professional cyclists have very precise training schedules (obviously flexible as well, to account for race calendar changes, injuries, etc.). Not all train with a powermeter, but all know what are the different training intensities. You'd be surprised as how many professionals use the same "doctors" - not (only!) for doping, but for their methods. You can count them with the fingers of one hand, I'd say. Half the stars were clients of Spanish Dr. Fuentes (they could easily get their blood transfusions at home, so they didn't go to him only for doping). Armstrong perhaps was "coached" by Carmichael, but I'd say more decisive for his accomplishments was the infamous Dr.Ferrari. In pro cycling you simply don't manage without the best training methods. Which doesn't mean that all methods are equal! Some go to gym every day in the winter, others have never seen weights; some use Very Slow Climbing (try it: a regular climb with a very high gear at 35-45 rpm, slightly below your Lactate Threshold), others abhor it. It is true that for them racing is a big part of the training. SLucido could argue that many race the Vuelta 3-week race as a training to the World Championships, and he'd be partially right. But he should take into account the 10+ years they have trained before becoming professionals. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6740 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 171 of 430 30 April 2008 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
If you do keep getting better and better, and the pace at which it is happening is satisfying to you, then there is no problem. Up to this point, there is indeed nothing to argue about. The arguments arose over the specific method slucido annunciated that presumably satisfies the above two criteria in his own case. He observed a well-established fact that one has to practice all four language skills with unabridged materials to acquire advanced skills in the language. He then came up with a minimalist method that says that that that's all there really is to language learning, everything else being a placebo that one can take if one wants to in order to feel better and thus stay motivated, but that it is nothing but a placebo nevertheless. Since there are only two criteria, all we have to do is check the statement against these two criteria. First, will you keep getting better and better? Several learners of East Asian languages say you will not, so if they are right, additional elements may not be placebos in that case. Are they right? Second, how fast will one learn? This one generated a lot of confusion. I think even slucido will admit that if one is learning against a tight deadline, one may need to go beyond the minimalist method, so even if all the non-minimalist learning techniques are placebos under the first criterion of ever getting there, they may be a necessity if speed is an issue. What about criterion one and the Western languages, or more generally, languages not too remote from one's native? Does one always "get there" with the minimalist method? Slucido sited the case of several Moroccan refugees in support of his viewpoint. First of all, they were in an immersion situation, and second, I'd like to know if they knew some French before coming to Spain. At any rate, it is not inconceivable that someone with a background in a common West European language could eventually learn another with the minimalist method without full immersion. Even if true, if the languages are not very close, it will undoubtedly take a substantial amount of time. Edited by frenkeld on 30 April 2008 at 12:58pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6654 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 172 of 430 30 April 2008 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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You guys are all saying the same thing.
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| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6740 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 173 of 430 30 April 2008 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Not true. slucido says you can learn Mandarin with just native materials in a non-immersive situation, other people say you can't. His presentation, in my view, was confused enough that one can try to claim that it didn't go beyond truisms, but he actually did make some potentially falsifiable statements. Edited by frenkeld on 30 April 2008 at 1:06pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6654 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 174 of 430 30 April 2008 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I can't find where he said that. Help me, please.
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| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6654 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 175 of 430 30 April 2008 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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No, I went back. He never said that.
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| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6740 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 176 of 430 30 April 2008 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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He implied that. It's called logic. :)
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