Best Method or More Time ? (Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies) Language Learning Forum

Best Method or More Time ?
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Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies

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slucido
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Message 401 of 430

09 May 2008 at 6:54am | IP Logged

Leopejo wrote:

slucido wrote:

I was very happy this morning because I saw several messages, but we continue talking about nothing

Serpent wrote:

No one denies it that there's no single best method, but that doesn't mean that sensible methods (that involve input+output+time) are equally effective.

What are those sensible methods?

What evidence we have apart from subjetive preferences?

I only need consensus between experts.

Nice to see how this thread is coming along. ;-)

SLucido, you have been presented evidence: the experiences of the users of this forum. .

Apart from output,input and time I don't find any consensus or more sensible methods and I find strong contradictions every now and again.

Leopejo wrote:

Also, the same papers you accept, for example F.H.Jackson, M.A.Kaplan, Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching, reinforce the same evidence. I'm afraid that you won't find other evidence in these Forums. You should perhaps try Google Scholar or other forums, if the users of this forum are not experts enough for you.

I don't find any evidence or consensus outside input+output+time and some subjetive preferences. In fact, what I find more consistent are time, motivation and strong usage of the language.

For example:

Key Factors in Language Learning Success,
by linguist David Crystal outlines in "The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language"

http://www.linguaguide.com/articles/16/1/Key-Factors-in-Lang uage-Learning-Success/Page1.html

Quote:

1-Motivation

2-Attitude

3-Exposure

4-Pacing

5-Practice

This is the same: input+output+time. Nothing new.

As it happens people disagree with that.
If you disagree, What are those 'sensible methods' outside
intense and extensive use of the target language?

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slucido
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Message 402 of 430

09 May 2008 at 7:14am | IP Logged

Regarding consensus between expertes I find interesting this commentary:

http://www.cal.org/resources/digest/0311leloup.html

Quote:

Lack of consensus. Researchers have yet to come to agreement on just what promotes and what hinders SLA. Much of the technology research base is centered on the investigation of computer use that facilitates or promotes those things that we believe aid language acquisition (e.g., interaction, target language input and output, acculturation, motivation)rather than on the measurement of outcomes. Therefore, much of the research base deals with analysis of learner discourse, self-report data, and qualitative surveys on affective reactions to technology use. Whether or not a causal relationship exists between these variables and learning outcomes or even if they are relevant influences remains a matter of speculation by researchers.

If you disagree,
what are those 'sensible methods' outside intensive and extensive use of the target language?

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Leopejo
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Message 403 of 430

09 May 2008 at 7:43am | IP Logged

Sorry Slucido, consider my previous post just me coming to greet people in this thread, where I tried to participate a long time ago. I'm not going to resume my debate with you.
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slucido
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Message 404 of 430

09 May 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged

Leopejo wrote:

Sorry Slucido, consider my previous post just me coming to greet people in this thread, where I tried to participate a long time ago. I'm not going to resume my debate with you.

Don't worry. I can summarize the latest answers:

-Writing about whatever except about the thread.

-Some people saying they agree, but I am wrong.

-Some people saying they disagree with me, but I am right.

Basically one word: smokescreen

Edited by slucido on 09 May 2008 at 2:57pm
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frenkeld
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Message 405 of 430

09 May 2008 at 11:06am | IP Logged

slucido wrote:

Serpent wrote:

... that doesn't mean that sensible methods (that involve input+output+time) are equally effective.

What evidence we have apart from subjetive preferences?

What technique would allow us to decide that some aspect of a language-learning approach is a subjective preference and not an objective factor?

It is not enough to say that some factors are common to all methods, because there is a hidden assumption there that how people learn does not vary with individual. How do we distinguish between (a) all people learn the same way, therefore most differences are subjective, and (b) people don't learn the same way, so such differences may actually be objective for any one individual?

Edited by frenkeld on 09 May 2008 at 11:06am
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slucido
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Message 406 of 430

09 May 2008 at 3:19pm | IP Logged

frenkeld wrote:

slucido wrote:

Serpent wrote:

... that doesn't mean that sensible methods (that involve input+output+time) are equally effective.

What evidence we have apart from subjetive preferences?

What technique would allow us to decide that some aspect of a language-learning approach is a subjective preference and not an objective factor?

I gave you the answer in one of my latest emails about levels of evidence. Finally I am just looking for consensus between experts. I think it's pretty interesting, isn't it?

frenkeld wrote:

It is not enough to say that some factors are common to all methods, because there is a hidden assumption there that how people learn does not vary with individual.

No, not at all.

One of the most strong common factors is 'motivation'. Everybody learn languages with motivation, but is it motivation equal?

No, because what motivate you can be the opposite that motivate me.

frenkeld wrote:

How do we distinguish between (a) all people learn the same way, therefore most differences are subjective, and (b) people don't learn the same way, so such differences may actually be objective for any one individual?

By means of scientific methodology

Edited by slucido on 09 May 2008 at 3:20pm
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frenkeld
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Message 407 of 430

09 May 2008 at 10:24pm | IP Logged

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

What technique would allow us to decide that some aspect of a language-learning approach is a subjective preference and not an objective factor?

... I think it's pretty interesting, isn't it?

It is interesting mostly as a scientific question. From the standpoint of practical language-learning it is not as interesting because it has only tangential bearing on what one ends up doing.

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

It is not enough to say that some factors are common to all methods, because there is a hidden assumption there that how people learn does not vary with individual.

One of the most strong common factors is 'motivation'. Everybody learn languages with motivation, but is it motivation equal?

I meant the underlying mechanism of language acquisition, i.e., the intrinsic way brain circuits learn, not the psychological factors.

You suggested earlier that one has to look at what's common among all the different ways people successfully learn languages, and you said it was input+output+time. Motivation wasn't on the list.

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

By means of scientific methodology

My question was to provide a description of a scientific experiment can distinguish the intrinsic from psychological factors. Any ideas?

Edited by frenkeld on 09 May 2008 at 11:12pm
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slucido
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Message 408 of 430

10 May 2008 at 3:45am | IP Logged

frenkeld wrote:

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

What technique would allow us to decide that some aspect of a language-learning approach is a subjective preference and not an objective factor?

... I think it's pretty interesting, isn't it?

It is interesting mostly as a scientific question. From the standpoint of practical language-learning it is not as interesting because it has only tangential bearing on what one ends up doing.

Then why do you ask the question?

It will be tangential or not depending on the global effect of this objective factors

frenkeld wrote:

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

It is not enough to say that some factors are common to all methods, because there is a hidden assumption there that how people learn does not vary with individual.

One of the most strong common factors is 'motivation'. Everybody learn languages with motivation, but is it motivation equal?

I meant the underlying mechanism of language acquisition, i.e., the intrinsic way brain circuits learn, not the psychological factors.

Whatever method o factor you choose, has its brain circuits, including psychological factors. All this brain circuits overlap.

Massive practice is another common factor, but we can use opposite materials.

frenkeld wrote:

You suggested earlier that one has to look at what's common among all the different ways people successfully learn languages, and you said it was input+output+time. Motivation wasn't on the list.

Have you read previous emails?

If you read previous emails you will see motivation into the time factor (and love and having fun...and boredom and hate with some persons)

If time factor is important, everything that increase time will be very important. Motivation is one of the most important, like personal preferences, beliefs and attitudes.

In fact, the goal of this thread was talking about TIME, how manage time and how to increase time, and not about best methods. In fact it's a waste of time because nobody know what are they.

frenkeld wrote:

slucido wrote:

frenkeld wrote:

By means of scientific methodology

My question was to provide a description of a scientific experiment can distinguish the intrinsic from psychological factors. Any ideas?

We don't need to design any experiments. In this forum we need results of that experiments.

We need to know 'what are those sensible methods' outside intensive and extensive usage of the language.

Edited by slucido on 10 May 2008 at 3:47am

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