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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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frenkeld
Diglot
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United States
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 Message 121 of 430
27 April 2008 at 11:16am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
I'm saying "best method" doesn't exist. We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else.

... we have two hypothesis:

1-H0 (null hypothesis): There is NO meaningful differences between methods.

2-H1(alternative hypothesis): There is meaningful differences between methods.


It is important to check if the two sides are talking about the same problem. When you say, "We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else," you are posing a problem in which you don't care how long it takes to get to an advanced level, as long as you get there. Most people who participated in this thread want to talk about the problem in which the time it takes to get to an advanced level does matter. Those are two different problem and two different sets of experiments.

Your hypotheses have different meanings depending on which of the two problems is being discussed. The first set of experiments is that you reach advanced level eventually, regardless of how long it takes to get there. The second set would take into account the amount of time it takes to reach the advanced level.

Do you believe in H0 for both sets of experiments?



Edited by frenkeld on 27 April 2008 at 11:17am
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slucido
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 Message 122 of 430
27 April 2008 at 12:34pm | IP Logged 
Leopejo wrote:

1- This is your HYPOTHESIS too. TIME is important and necessary: without time, you don't learn. BUT you can't say for sure that it is the most important factor. As you said, what is important is the outcome (counting there also the fun you had while learning the language). If you have more time than me, but I have a better method, hypothetically it is perfectly possible that I learn more than you. It is the COMBINATION of time and other factors.


As I said before, provided that we have the language, TIME is the most important factor. As YOU said, if you don't have time, you don't have anything. It's a fact.

As I said long before, I am not comparing between you and me or whoever you want, I am talking about you comparing with you or me comparing with me.

As I said before, yes, there are other factors...if you become blind or deaf or dumb, you will have a serious drawback.


Leopejo wrote:

2- The group of people in these forums has given MUCH evidence. Someone could make a statistical study and tell us how probable your hypothesis H0 is (with all the difficulty of gathering information from the messages in this forum and accounting for all the skewing factors). Without giving you a number, I am pretty confident that your hypothesis H0 can be ruled out, at least in our group of forumists.

Still, you didn't present H0 as a hypothesis to be ruled out, you presented it as TRUTH. As you put it in your newest post (H1 and H2), it's good for me. There is H1 and H2, and H1 is not 100 % certain (but good for me with enough confidence) .


This is not a professional forum, it's an open forum. People write its testimonials, personal opinions and anecdotes. These aren't proves or enough evidences. On the other hand, people write OPPOSITE testimonials. You can find one person against one method out of other person in favor of the same method.

I only need one question: What is the best learning language method?

You will find extremely opposite testimonials.

Finally, we have this article:

Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching

http://digital.georgetown.edu/gurt/1999/gurt_1999_07.pdf

"Lesson 3. There is no “one right way” to teach (or learn) languages, nor is there a single “right” syllabus.

Students at FSI and in other government language
training programs have learned and still do learn languages successfully
from syllabi based on audio-lingual practice of grammatical patterns, linguistic
functions, social situations, task-based learning, community language learning,
the silent way, and combinations of these and other approaches. Spolsky (1989:
383) writes, “Any intelligent and disinterested observer knows that there are
many ways to learn languages and many ways to teach them, and that some ways
work with some students in some circumstances and fail with others.” This
matches our experience precisely.

It is also clear, as many have reported, that learners’ needs change over
time—sometimes rapidly.

Lesson 4. Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear
crucial.

...

Learning a language also cannot be done in a short time."


PLEASE, read the above paragraphs.


As you see, I reformulated my affirmations for you:

There is NOT enough evidence to rule out H0

If you want, this is the truth so far.

I would like serious evidences against it and I would be very happy if this evidences exist.





Edited by slucido on 27 April 2008 at 12:52pm
1 person has voted this message useful



slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
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 Message 123 of 430
27 April 2008 at 12:43pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
I'm saying "best method" doesn't exist. We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else.

... we have two hypothesis:

1-H0 (null hypothesis): There is NO meaningful differences between methods.

2-H1(alternative hypothesis): There is meaningful differences between methods.


It is important to check if the two sides are talking about the same problem. When you say, "We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else," you are posing a problem in which you don't care how long it takes to get to an advanced level, as long as you get there. Most people who participated in this thread want to talk about the problem in which the time it takes to get to an advanced level does matter. Those are two different problem and two different sets of experiments.

Your hypotheses have different meanings depending on which of the two problems is being discussed. The first set of experiments is that you reach advanced level eventually, regardless of how long it takes to get there. The second set would take into account the amount of time it takes to reach the advanced level.

Do you believe in H0 for both sets of experiments?



OUTCOME= native or native level proficiency.

MEANINGFUL differences= include time to achieve the outcome.




1 person has voted this message useful



Leopejo
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Italy
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 Message 124 of 430
27 April 2008 at 1:21pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
...

I am done with this thread. Evidently, we don't understand each other. I'll leave it to others.

Edited by Leopejo on 27 April 2008 at 1:32pm
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Goindol
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United States
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165 posts - 203 votes 

 
 Message 125 of 430
27 April 2008 at 2:46pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
Leopejo wrote:

Still, you didn't present H0 as a hypothesis to be ruled out, you presented it as TRUTH. As you put it in your newest post (H1 and H2), it's good for me. There is H1 and H2, and H1 is not 100 % certain (but good for me with enough confidence) .


This is not a professional forum, it's an open forum. People write its testimonials, personal opinions and anecdotes. These aren't proves or enough evidences. On the other hand, people write OPPOSITE testimonials. You can find one person against one method out of other person in favor of the same method.

...

As you see, I reformulated my affirmations for you:

There is NOT enough evidence to rule out H0

If you want, this is the truth so far.


Is it me, or is there a double standard for scientific rigour in the quoted post?

Edited by Goindol on 27 April 2008 at 2:48pm
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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
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2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 126 of 430
27 April 2008 at 3:05pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
I'm saying "best method" doesn't exist. We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else.

... we have two hypothesis:

1-H0 (null hypothesis): There is NO meaningful differences between methods.

2-H1(alternative hypothesis): There is meaningful differences between methods.


Your hypotheses have different meanings depending on which of the two problems is being discussed. The first set of experiments is that you reach advanced level eventually, regardless of how long it takes to get there. The second set would take into account the amount of time it takes to reach the advanced level.

Do you believe in H0 for both sets of experiments?


OUTCOME= native or native level proficiency.

MEANINGFUL differences= include time to achieve the outcome.


OK, just to be clear, is it (a) "We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else", or (b) we do care about the time to achieve the "outcome"?

Do you believe that hypothesis H0 holds for both situation (a) and situation (b)?




Edited by frenkeld on 27 April 2008 at 3:07pm
1 person has voted this message useful



slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes 
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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 127 of 430
27 April 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
I'm saying "best method" doesn't exist. We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else.

... we have two hypothesis:

1-H0 (null hypothesis): There is NO meaningful differences between methods.

2-H1(alternative hypothesis): There is meaningful differences between methods.


Your hypotheses have different meanings depending on which of the two problems is being discussed. The first set of experiments is that you reach advanced level eventually, regardless of how long it takes to get there. The second set would take into account the amount of time it takes to reach the advanced level.

Do you believe in H0 for both sets of experiments?


OUTCOME= native or native level proficiency.

MEANINGFUL differences= include time to achieve the outcome.


OK, just to be clear, is it (a) "We are talking about OUTCOME, not about anything else", or (b) we do care about the time to achieve the "outcome"?

Do you believe that hypothesis H0 holds for both situation (a) and situation (b)?





Yes, we do care about the time to achieve the "outcome".

My answer was to Leospejo in other context.

He said that different methods are different.... Yes, different methods are different, but the outcome it isn't different. We are referring to meaningful differences regarding the outcome.

This outcome is native or near native fluency and that includes time to achieve the results.

Edited by slucido on 27 April 2008 at 3:19pm
1 person has voted this message useful



slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 128 of 430
27 April 2008 at 3:15pm | IP Logged 
Goindol wrote:

Is it me, or is there a double standard for scientific rigour in the quoted post?


If you have any evidence in favor of H1, let us know. Please




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