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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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Mcjon01
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 Message 137 of 430
27 April 2008 at 6:19pm | IP Logged 
edwin wrote:

It seems that what slucido said has been supported by findings from FSI. Or is he saying something different?


Most of what he's saying is supported by the FSI article, but he seems to be glossing over the part that says that effective learning is determined by both time on task and the intensity of the learning experience. So, even though there is no method or curriculum that can be considered the "best" for every single student, a more intense method will yield more efficient results, regardless of what that method is.
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leosmith
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 Message 138 of 430
27 April 2008 at 10:28pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
Finally, you will need the real staff.

Careful my friend - some typos are dangerous.

slucido wrote:
There is NOT enough evidence to rule out H0

Not being able to rule it out is not the same as being able to prove it, right?

Goindol wrote:
Same with sex. As long as there is INPUT and OUTPUT + TIME, any approach is as good as
another.

and I thought my love life was pitiful...

slucido wrote:

I began with pimsleur, Assimil I and II when I had around 95% reading understanding.

Sorry for not understanding, but are you saying you did these programs after you reached 95%?

slucido wrote:
Same as psychotherapy. People and a lot of professionals think their approach and techniques
are the best, but there is strong scientific evidence about NOT best approach.

I agree. I remember reading about a study that showed regular exercise was more effective than psychotherapy.

Mcjon01 wrote:
Most of what he's saying is supported by the FSI article,

Respectfully disagree.
slucido wrote:
I think that methods are not that important.

slucido wrote:
I don't believe in different learning styles.

FSI wrote:
we might say that some learners, in a sense, demonstrate higher "aptitudes" in one style of
language program than in another.

FSI wrote:
Spolsky (1989: 383) writes, "Any intelligent and disinterested observer knows that there are
many ways to learn languages and many ways to teach them,and that some ways
work with some students in some circumstances and fail with others."

slucido says there isn't a single best method, which FSI supports, but then he goes on to say that the method
isn't important, which FSI contradicts.

slucido wrote:
You can learn grammar at the beginning, in the middle or at the end. It doesn't matter
provided that you have strong motivation and time.

FSI wrote:
If there is insufficient early focus on form,we have learned that learners may, indeed, risk
automatizing ingrained errors (see Higgs and Clifford 1982).

slucido says it doesn't matter when you learn grammar. FSI says you should do it at the beginning.

slucido wrote:
The most important factor is TIME and LOVE devoted to the target language.

FSI wrote:
Time on task and the intensity of the learning experience appear crucial.

slucido says time and love are the most important factors, FSI says time and intensity are crucial.

slucido wrote:
I think the DVD movie methods are the best.

slucido wrote:
All this "best method approach" is a huge illusory and misleading delusion.

Huh? Where'd that come from?

Unrelated, but time to plug my favorite quotes from that paper:
FSI wrote:
"If an adult tells you that he needs something in order to learn,the chances are very good that he's
right."


FSI wrote:
Successful language learning requires "stretching" learners some of the time through "i +1" type
tasks. Yet it is also important to build up processing skills by varying the pace and giving learners some tasks
that they can perform easily.


FSI wrote:
Conversation, which on the surface appears to be one of the most basic forms of communication, is
actually one of the hardest to master.


Love that article!



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Mcjon01
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 Message 139 of 430
27 April 2008 at 10:53pm | IP Logged 
Hmm. You're right. I suppose I should have gotten a better idea of what Slucido's arguments were before I spoke, eh? On the other hand, there's something about his posts that grates on me. I just don't like reading them.

Anyway, my take on the subject is that there isn't a "best" method, but that doesn't mean that some methods aren't better than others. It's a fallacy to assume that just because some things are better than others that there must be a "best" thing, but it is also a fallacy to assume that the absence of a "best" thing means that all other things are equal. If that makes sense.
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edwin
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 Message 140 of 430
28 April 2008 at 9:15am | IP Logged 
I also tend to believe that acquiring language is different from learning another skill. And somehow it is not easy to describe it. Perhaps it is like building up a personal relationship.

People might have different tactics to 'befriend' your target person. But eventually if you want to build up a true relationship, you have to spend time, a lot of time. And you have to keep yourself motivated in the process.

Are the tactics irrelevant? Absolutely not. Is there a best tactic for each individual person? May be. But they are not the key to build up a true relationship. Perhaps this is what slucido means. At least, this is how I think about language learning.
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slucido
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 Message 141 of 430
28 April 2008 at 9:22am | IP Logged 
edwin wrote:
I also tend to believe that acquiring language is different from learning another skill. And somehow it is not easy to describe it. Perhaps it is like building up a personal relationship.

People might have different tactics to 'befriend' your target person. But eventually if you want to build up a true relationship, you have to spend time, a lot of time. And you have to keep yourself motivated in the process.

Are the tactics irrelevant? Absolutely not. Is there a best tactic for each individual person? May be. But they are not the key to build up a true relationship. Perhaps this is what slucido means. At least, this is how I think about language learning.


Yes, this is what I think. Crystal clear. Thank you.




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frenkeld
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 Message 142 of 430
28 April 2008 at 9:42am | IP Logged 
edwin wrote:
Are the tactics irrelevant? Absolutely not. ... But they are not the key to build up a true relationship.


So, they are relevant, but they are not the key? I have trouble with the concept. Are they a key?



Edited by frenkeld on 28 April 2008 at 9:43am
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edwin
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 Message 143 of 430
28 April 2008 at 9:58am | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
edwin wrote:
Are the tactics irrelevant? Absolutely not. ... But they are not the key to build up a true relationship.


So, they are relevant, but they are not the key? I have trouble with the concept. Are they a key?


Is buying flower to your other half on Valentine's day relevant in building up your relationship? To some, for sure it is! Is it really the key to the relationship. I wouldn't think so.
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slucido
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 Message 144 of 430
28 April 2008 at 10:59am | IP Logged 
Mcjon01 wrote:
edwin wrote:

It seems that what slucido said has been supported by findings from FSI. Or is he saying something different?


Most of what he's saying is supported by the FSI article, but he seems to be glossing over the part that says that effective learning is determined by both time on task and the intensity of the learning experience. So, even though there is no method or curriculum that can be considered the "best" for every single student, a more intense method will yield more efficient results, regardless of what that method is.


I don't understand why do you say I'm "glossing over" something.

I am saying from the beginning that working a lot of time every day and for a long time are very important. I have been talking about using hidden moments to build intensity, maybe obsession.




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