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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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ChrisWebb
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6264 days ago
181 posts - 190 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 153 of 430
29 April 2008 at 2:48pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
ChrisWebb wrote:


I think to be honest you are simply mistaking your limited experience for a broader principle. In truth you have never learned a harder language and simply arent qualified to push your view as though it were axiomatic.



Why do you presuppose you have any special skill to assess anybody here?

How do you know my experience?

Do you have any paranormal skill to asses people through nick names?


ChrisWebb wrote:

Right now i have never taken a Spanish lesson yet can make a pretty good stab at reading easy Spanish texts, that is simply because the jump from Spanish to English is relatively easy. Howerver trying that same approach where the gap between languages is larger and it plainly and simply DOES NOT WORK.

And I'm sorry that you will find that hard to accept.....

Come back after learning Japanese/Korean/Mandarin using no language course material and i might be impressed. I wont hold my breath though.



I don't believe you. High emotional attitudes like yours don't change through reason, but emotions.

However, you can take a look at alljapanaseallthetime.com. This guy is English speaker and he has learned Japanese and he don't use language courses. I am sure you will find hundreds of 'reasons' to dismiss that testimony:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/isnt-real-japanese -too-hard-for-beginners

Quote:


Perhaps there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with your typical language-learning tape, but:
1) I never used them
2) The people I have met who have used them, have trouble with real Japanese as it is spoken by actual Japanese people…
…because, as you said, they ARE contrived. So contrived as to be almost useless. Have you heard the kinds of tapes people in Japan and other countries use to learn English?



I am not telling that you don't use language courses to learn Japanese, Mandarin and so on. I am telling do whatever you want as long as you spend a lot of time and you have fun.


I have used language course materials, but in the "wrong order" and in the "wrong time".



If i was wrong please enlighten me, which hard language did you learn merely with time and native material? As for Katsumoto he clearly does more than simply spend time with native material, trying to sell him as an example of your approach is absurd. The guy even links to and recommends course material such as 'Remembering the Kanji', perhaps you should click on your own link to educate yourself.

Edited by ChrisWebb on 29 April 2008 at 3:18pm
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes 
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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 154 of 430
29 April 2008 at 3:33pm | IP Logged 
ChrisWebb wrote:

If i was wrong please enlighten me, which hard language did you learn merely with time and native material? As for Katsumoto he clearly does more than simply spend time with native material, trying to sell him as an example of your approach is absurd. The guy even links to and recommends course material such as 'Remembering the Kanji', perhaps you should click on your own link to educate yourself.


As I said before, highly emotive attitudes doesn't change by reasons.

Using a book to "Rememberig Kanji" it's not a language course. Using a grammar book or a dictionary isn't a language course.

By the way, what approach am I trying to sell?

Please, enlighten us.


1 person has voted this message useful



ChrisWebb
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6264 days ago
181 posts - 190 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 155 of 430
29 April 2008 at 4:06pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
ChrisWebb wrote:

If i was wrong please enlighten me, which hard language did you learn merely with time and native material? As for Katsumoto he clearly does more than simply spend time with native material, trying to sell him as an example of your approach is absurd. The guy even links to and recommends course material such as 'Remembering the Kanji', perhaps you should click on your own link to educate yourself.


As I said before, highly emotive attitudes doesn't change by reasons.

Using a book to "Rememberig Kanji" it's not a language course. Using a grammar book or a dictionary isn't a language course.

By the way, what approach am I trying to sell?

Please, enlighten us.



Thats quite a retreat from the position you've been pushing of only using native materials and time, books in the base rather than target language are hardly native afterall. I take that as a basic admission of defeat. As for the ad hominem junk you spout, it hardly makes up for your lack of real argument.

By the way I'm still waiting for you to tell me which hard language you actually learned with your approach...... Could it be that despite all the indignant ranting I didnt actually need special powers to figure you out I wonder?

Perhaps it isnt me that is over emotional here.
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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6944 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 156 of 430
30 April 2008 at 12:28am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
That's why I am skeptic about learning styles. In the end, if you want native fluency, you will need listening, reading, writing and speaking practice. However, without taking preferences into account or having fun, the average person will give up the learning process.


However, in the cited book, it is precisely the "Approaches to language learning based on learning style" that are based on principles closest to your own, including

    * Learning in your preferred learning style increases motivation and effectiveness.
    * Motivation affects the time spent learning a language.

so in some sense there is a contradiction in your being skeptical about the learning styles while insisting on taking preferences into account and having fun.

One problem I have with the whole business of preferences and having fun driving the motivation is the assumption that motivation is almost entirely determined by whether one is having fun at the moment. What ever happened to the concept of delayed gratification? Can't a fair fraction of one's motivation come from the desire to achieve results, and from being able to achieve them sooner rather than later?

1 person has voted this message useful



slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 157 of 430
30 April 2008 at 8:00am | IP Logged 
ChrisWebb wrote:

Thats quite a retreat from the position you've been pushing of only using native materials and time, books in the base rather than target language are hardly native afterall. I take that as a basic admission of defeat. As for the ad hominem junk you spout, it hardly makes up for your lack of real argument.

By the way I'm still waiting for you to tell me which hard language you actually learned with your approach...... Could it be that despite all the indignant ranting I didnt actually need special powers to figure you out I wonder?

Perhaps it isnt me that is over emotional here.


Your words pin me down to the tree like St. Sebastian :0))

Please, when you finish your tantrum, read the thread's title.



Edited by slucido on 30 April 2008 at 9:24am
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ChrisWebb
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 6264 days ago
181 posts - 190 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Korean

 
 Message 158 of 430
30 April 2008 at 8:17am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
ChrisWebb wrote:

Thats quite a retreat from the position you've been pushing of only using native materials and time, books in the base rather than target language are hardly native afterall. I take that as a basic admission of defeat. As for the ad hominem junk you spout, it hardly makes up for your lack of real argument.

By the way I'm still waiting for you to tell me which hard language you actually learned with your approach...... Could it be that despite all the indignant ranting I didnt actually need special powers to figure you out I wonder?

Perhaps it isnt me that is over emotional here.


Your words are pin me down to the tree like St. Sebastian :0))

Please, when you finish your tantrum, read the thread's title.



I read your posts and the thread title, if method matters not at all then frankly what is your gripe? Afterall if any old method works and you know this for sure it should be easy to demonstrate that native material alone is enough, right? Yet I'm still waiting for you to show me my error by telling me which hard language you have learned with only native material. At minimum you can surely provide someone who has used such a method efficiently and successfully to learn a distant foreign language. We know the guy at AllJapaneseAllTheTime didnt so presumably you have another example.

Edited by ChrisWebb on 30 April 2008 at 8:25am
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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 159 of 430
30 April 2008 at 8:29am | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
That's why I am skeptic about learning styles. In the end, if you want native fluency, you will need listening, reading, writing and speaking practice. However, without taking preferences into account or having fun, the average person will give up the learning process.


However, in the cited book, it is precisely the "Approaches to language learning based on learning style" that are based on principles closest to your own, including

    * Learning in your preferred learning style increases motivation and effectiveness.
    * Motivation affects the time spent learning a language.

so in some sense there is a contradiction in your being skeptical about the learning styles while insisting on taking preferences into account and having fun.



This question isn't related to language learning. I am a bit skeptical about psychiatric and psychological classifications in general.

You have preferences, whatever the reason, and you take them into account.Then you develop your own method according to your preferences. It's subjective process and not a objective one. Maybe one person like strict schedules. I think we need to take into account this 'strict schedule' belief. Other person like music, then we need to take songs and lyrics into account.

Are those approaches the best methods for those persons... objectively speaking?

I don't know, but it's sure that they are the best subjective approach and, by my own experience, I think it is very very important to take into account all this subjetive stuff.

Even if you have objective evidences that they're not that good.

frenkeld wrote:

One problem I have with the whole business of preferences and having fun driving the motivation is the assumption that motivation is almost entirely determined by whether one is having fun at the moment. What ever happened to the concept of delayed gratification? Can't a fair fraction of one's motivation come from the desire to achieve results, and from being able to achieve them sooner rather than later?


The concept of delayed gratification has a strong subjectivity side as well.

Sometimes people believe that they need to suffer and work hard if they want future results. I don't know if that it's always true or not, but we need to take this belief into account.

Maybe same people like movies or music, but these people have the belief that it's impossible learn a language only by having fun. Maybe they believe they need a percentage of drilling and hard work. Well, with this people, you need to consider all this factors . I don't know if that belief is objectively true, but you can not use movies, lyrics and songs with these people, you need drilling and hard work and, maybe, you can introduce a little fun (movies or songs) later.







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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes 
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Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English

 
 Message 160 of 430
30 April 2008 at 8:31am | IP Logged 
ChrisWebb wrote:

I read your posts and the thread title, if method matters not at all then frankly what is your gripe? Afterall if any old method works and you know this for sure it should be easy to demonstrate that native material alone is enough, right? Yet I'm still waiting for you to show me my error by telling me which hard language you have learned with only native material. At minimum you can surely provide someone who has used such a method efficiently and successfully to learn a distant foreign language. We know the guy at AllJapaneseAllTheTime didnt so presumably you have another example.



When you finish your tantrum, read my posts and you will know. :0)


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