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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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slucido
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 Message 273 of 430
02 May 2008 at 4:14pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
slucido wrote:


Language methods have positive and real effect, because they have input+output.

(Ramipril and Losartan are drugs with pharmacological effect)

I think language methods between themselves don't have meaningful differences, but they are NOT placebos.

(Ramipril and Losartan may not have meaningful anti hypertensive differences between themselves, but they are NOT placebos)

2-Methods are different (like Ramipril and Losartan), but I think this differences aren't meaningful regarding language learning, but mainly psychological.

But at the same time you say that one can learn a language without any methods just using native materials, and that means methods are placebos that help you stay motivated.


Sorry, but your mind reading is wrong. I absolutely disagree.

Rambo method is a extreme situation, but it has input+output. So it is NOT placebo.

In fact, Rambo method is HARD DRUG.

You have two extreme situations:

1-Rambo method: native materials from the beginning without anesthesia.

2-Bambi method: extremely soft, with everything you need, one-to-one teachers, translations, books, audio, readers, happy natives smiling and bilinguals,...

The differences between them are strongly psychological. Imagine psychological differences between Rambo people and Bambi people.







Edited by slucido on 02 May 2008 at 4:18pm
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CaitO'Ceallaigh
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 Message 274 of 430
02 May 2008 at 4:16pm | IP Logged 
I like the Bambi method! :)
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slucido
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 Message 275 of 430
02 May 2008 at 4:22pm | IP Logged 
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:
I like the Bambi method! :)




I like Bambi method, but I don't have enough money :-(


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frenkeld
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 Message 276 of 430
02 May 2008 at 4:38pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
Make sense.


No, it doesn't, at least not to me. Now, please, don't explode, but hear me out and let me explain why I say that.

slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
I think language methods between themselves don't have meaningful differences
...
I think this differences aren't meaningful regarding language learning, but mainly psychological.


And this is what a lot of people didn't agree with. However, to be able to agree or disagree without going in circles, one has to define what constitutes a "meaningful difference" as opposed to a "psychological difference". I am still not clear on how the two are defined.


We have two sentences:

1-There are differences, but NOT meaningful from linguistic point of view. Everything is around input+output+time.

If you choose whatever method, which has input and output, you will succeed.

For example: You have three methods:
...
Regarding linguistic point of view, I think there are NOT meaningful differences between them.

2-There are differences, MEANINGFUL from psychological point of view.

If there aren't meaningful linguistic differences between previous approaches, why so rabid reactions???

Because of strong psychological differences.

We are dealing with emotional states, personality traits, previous history with languages, peer pressure, authority pressure, psychopathology and so on.

The method itself can suit better some psychological traits and beliefs (FSI,Pimsleur, FIA, Assimil)


I asked about the distinction between a "meaningful difference" and a "psychological difference". You proceed to talk about "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view" and "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view".

So, we now have replacements:

"meaningful difference" -> "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view"

"psychological difference" -> "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view"

I can only ask at this point what the distinction is between "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view" and "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view".

Same question as before, just slightly different words. Still unclear to me, unfortunately.

Now, to be fair, you said,

slucido wrote:
1-There are differences, but NOT meaningful from linguistic point of view. Everything is around input+output+time.
If you choose whatever method, which has input and output, you will succeed.


Here the "you will succeed" clause seems to imply that linguistic differences between methods would be there if and only if one method offered a possible path to success ("possible to learn a language with this method"), while the other didn't ("impossible to learn a language with this method"). Is that so, or is there more to "linguistic differences"?

I cannot say strongly enough that I am not trying to goad you, but just to achieve clarity of statements and definitions, so we can we can wrap up this discussion to everyone's satisfaction.


Edited by frenkeld on 02 May 2008 at 5:12pm
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CaitO'Ceallaigh
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 Message 277 of 430
02 May 2008 at 4:59pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:
I like the Bambi method! :)




I like Bambi method, but I don't have enough money :-(



Well, the Rambo method seems to be working very well for you here. :)

How did you learn English, if I might ask?
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slucido
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 Message 278 of 430
02 May 2008 at 5:53pm | IP Logged 
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:
slucido wrote:
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:
I like the Bambi method! :)




I like Bambi method, but I don't have enough money :-(



Well, the Rambo method seems to be working very well for you here. :)

How did you learn English, if I might ask?


Reading websites about technical stuff first and informal stuff an books later. I used to work with on line dictionaries. I began with audio two years ago.






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slucido
Bilingual Diglot
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 Message 279 of 430
02 May 2008 at 6:12pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:

I asked about the distinction between a "meaningful difference" and a "psychological difference". You proceed to talk about "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view" and "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view".

So, we now have replacements:

"meaningful difference" -> "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view"

"psychological difference" -> "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view"

I can only ask at this point what the distinction is between "differences [that are] meaningful from linguistic point of view" and "differences [that are] meaningful from psychological point of view".

Same question as before, just slightly different words. Still unclear to me, unfortunately.


I don't understand what you don't understand.

Do you want to talk about psychology?
Do you want to talk about languages?
Do you want to talk about statistical terminology ?
Are you sure?
Do you think this can be useful for us or other forum people?


You can use words like 'meaningful differences" or "significant differences'. This words are terminology used in evidence based medicine and psychology. Those are statistics words. I am talking about statistical significance.

When I said there are 'meaningful differences', I can say 'significant differences' and that means "statistically significant difference". Now, we have more problems, because I added another word: "statistically'

Why is there a problem?

"statistically " means that difference can be statistical, but not necessarily important in every day sense.

Do you want to continue?



frenkeld wrote:

Now, to be fair, you said,

slucido wrote:
1-There are differences, but NOT meaningful from linguistic point of view. Everything is around input+output+time.
If you choose whatever method, which has input and output, you will succeed.


Here the "you will succeed" clause seems to imply that linguistic differences between methods would be there if and only if one method offered a possible path to success ("possible to learn a language with this method"), while the other didn't ("impossible to learn a language with this method"). Is that so, or is there more to "linguistic differences"?

I cannot say strongly enough that I am not trying to goad you, but just to achieve clarity of statements and definitions, so we can we can wrap up this discussion to everyone's satisfaction.


Here, I don't know what you are talking about.


1 person has voted this message useful



CaitO'Ceallaigh
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United States
katiekelly.wordpress
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Studies: Czech, German

 
 Message 280 of 430
02 May 2008 at 6:24pm | IP Logged 
Can't we just call it a day? :)


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