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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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frenkeld
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 Message 289 of 430
03 May 2008 at 10:28am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
By the way, have you seen Arguelle's website?


I haven't been following his subforum, so I didn't know the site existed.


slucido wrote:
If you want, we can start another thread.


I think I need a little vacation from the forum, but thanks for the offer. What would the subject be anyway?


P.S. By the way, I think you misunderstood something Serpent said earlier:

slucido wrote:
Serpent wrote:
But at the same time you say that one can learn a language without any methods just using native materials, and that means methods are placebos that help you stay motivated.


Rambo method is a extreme situation, but it has input+output. So it is NOT placebo.


She clearly meant that it is the various additions to the basic Rambo core that are found in all other methods which are placebos, not the Rambo core itself.




Edited by frenkeld on 03 May 2008 at 10:37am
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slucido
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 Message 290 of 430
03 May 2008 at 2:22pm | IP Logged 
frenkeld wrote:

I think I need a little vacation from the forum, but thanks for the offer. What would the subject be anyway?


Rambo method. Is it possible?


frenkeld wrote:

P.S. By the way, I think you misunderstood something Serpent said earlier:

slucido wrote:
Serpent wrote:
But at the same time you say that one can learn a language without any methods just using native materials, and that means methods are placebos that help you stay motivated.


Rambo method is a extreme situation, but it has input+output. So it is NOT placebo.


She clearly meant that it is the various additions to the basic Rambo core that are found in all other methods which are placebos, not the Rambo core itself.



Here we have two problems:

1-Terminology:

Placebo meanings:


-An inactive substance against which investigational treatments are compared for efficacy.

-A fake (sham, dummy, inert) treatment, given to people in a control group so they can't know whether or not they are in an experimental or control group. Placebos are meant to be both useless and harmless, so that they don't have any effect


Rambo method is either fake or inactive. We can not apply the word placebo here.


2-Method:

Rambo method is informal, but it's a method. People learn using strategies.

We can assess differences between methods. The 'active' differences aim to psychological factors (See previous emails). These "psychological factors" change between different persons, between different levels, between different stages,between different languages. It can change between the same person.

By the way, here we have a case study from Krashen:

What Does It Take To Acquire Language?

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.ht ml


Discusses what it takes to acquire language, and suggests that second language acquisition can occur without living in the country where the language is spoken and without formal instruction. The crucial variables appear to be comprehensible input and having a good relationship with speakers of the language. Provides an example of a Mexican immigrant in the United States who learned to speak Hebrew.


He presents it as a 'comprehensible input' informal proof, but it seems to me more closely related to "Rambo method". This person suffered 'non-understanding' step at first. Little anesthesia.

Remember. I am not saying this is the best method. It's only an 'input-output-time' option. It depends on our psychological traits and circumstances.




Edited by slucido on 03 May 2008 at 2:29pm
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slucido
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 Message 291 of 430
03 May 2008 at 3:05pm | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:
slucido wrote:
reineke wrote:
My goodness, these discussions sap people's energy and the little free time they have for language learning. People here being mostly me. I am off to study a language I don't like using the most boring, repetitive method imaginable.


I am using the "write 100,000 sentences in the forum" method. Boredom is subjective stuff.




So is love, having fun etc.
Boredom is possibly more real and enduring than most things. Love, fun etc. are more fickle and fleeting things that often irresistibly gravitate towards this gray monster. Boredom is also more objectively measurable and induced. It is successfully reproduced on daily basis millions of times in language laboratories, classrooms and homes all over the world. Ultimately, if we need to talk about fun so much it's a losing battle.


Yes, boredom, love, having fun...are subjective feelings, but it is a good thing, because it can be easier to change subjetive things than objective ones.

Usually people get strongly motivated by fun, passion. courage and love, but everybody is different. Maybe other people get motivated by boredom, fear and hate. However I don't think these are healthy...






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reineke
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 Message 292 of 430
03 May 2008 at 4:10pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:

I think I need a little vacation from the forum, but thanks for the offer. What would the subject be anyway?


Rambo method. Is it possible?


frenkeld wrote:

P.S. By the way, I think you misunderstood something Serpent said earlier:

slucido wrote:
Serpent wrote:
But at the same time you say that one can learn a language without any methods just using native materials, and that means methods are placebos that help you stay motivated.


Rambo method is a extreme situation, but it has input+output. So it is NOT placebo.


She clearly meant that it is the various additions to the basic Rambo core that are found in all other methods which are placebos, not the Rambo core itself.



Here we have two problems:

1-Terminology:

Placebo meanings:


-An inactive substance against which investigational treatments are compared for efficacy.

-A fake (sham, dummy, inert) treatment, given to people in a control group so they can't know whether or not they are in an experimental or control group. Placebos are meant to be both useless and harmless, so that they don't have any effect


Rambo method is either fake or inactive. We can not apply the word placebo here.


2-Method:

Rambo method is informal, but it's a method. People learn using strategies.

We can assess differences between methods. The 'active' differences aim to psychological factors (See previous emails). These "psychological factors" change between different persons, between different levels, between different stages,between different languages. It can change between the same person.

By the way, here we have a case study from Krashen:

What Does It Take To Acquire Language?

http://www.sdkrashen.com/articles/what_does_it_take/index.ht ml


Discusses what it takes to acquire language, and suggests that second language acquisition can occur without living in the country where the language is spoken and without formal instruction. The crucial variables appear to be comprehensible input and having a good relationship with speakers of the language. Provides an example of a Mexican immigrant in the United States who learned to speak Hebrew.


He presents it as a 'comprehensible input' informal proof, but it seems to me more closely related to "Rambo method". This person suffered 'non-understanding' step at first. Little anesthesia.

Remember. I am not saying this is the best method. It's only an 'input-output-time' option. It depends on our psychological traits and circumstances.





Your argument seems to be

Placebo Pill=inactive substance

Method= input etc, language material

Language material is not inactive substance, therefore the method is not a placebo. It works, but the method is ornamental and psychological.

I see a problem with this argument.

A pill’s ingredient is supposed to affect the body in a desired manner.

A method is supposed to organize language material and facilitate learning due to its designed properties. It is "real" although you cannot pop it down. It should be considered separately from any language material.

A placebo is inactive substance and a material object that when dissolved does not affect the body. Benefits are purely psychological.

If a method is ineffective, it is an inactive substance as far as organizing language material and facilitating learning. Beneficial effects of such a method are purely psychological. Such a method is therefore a placebo.

To simplify even further you're dealing with several concepts, basically chucking a pill/placebo (method) here in a pound of lard (language content) and telling people the pill will accelerate absorption. It may or it may not.


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slucido
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 Message 293 of 430
04 May 2008 at 2:36am | IP Logged 
reineke wrote:

Your argument seems to be

Placebo Pill=inactive substance

Method= input etc, language material

Language material is not inactive substance, therefore the method is not a placebo. It works, but the method is ornamental and psychological.

I see a problem with this argument.

A pill’s ingredient is supposed to affect the body in a desired manner.

A method is supposed to organize language material and facilitate learning due to its designed properties. It is "real" although you cannot pop it down. It should be considered separately from any language material.

A placebo is inactive substance and a material object that when dissolved does not affect the body. Benefits are purely psychological.

If a method is ineffective, it is an inactive substance as far as organizing language material and facilitating learning. Beneficial effects of such a method are purely psychological. Such a method is therefore a placebo.

To simplify even further you're dealing with several concepts, basically chucking a pill/placebo (method) here in a pound of lard (language content) and telling people the pill will accelerate absorption. It may or it may not.


Purely psychological effects are NOT equal to placebo.

If your statement was true, it will be impossible to measure differences between psychological techniques. All differences between psychological techniques are necessarily psychological. So all scientific investigation in this field would be futile.

You are confounding UNSPECIFIC effects (placebo) with SPECIFIC ONES (due to the specific technique).

Psychological effects can be placebo (unspecific) or not (due to the specific psychological technique).


You guys freak me out with all this 'best method thing'. They look like religious sects.

Do you thing all those language techniques and approaches give you something so special?

They only give you a few things:

1-Words.

2-Sentences with these words.

3-Repetition (TIME)

Everything else are flowers.


These flowers can be very important due to their psychological effects (placebo or NOT placebo), but not due to their linguistic properties.







Edited by slucido on 04 May 2008 at 11:34am
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frenkeld
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 Message 294 of 430
04 May 2008 at 8:00am | IP Logged 
placebo noun (PL. placebos):

- a medicine or procedure prescribed for the psychological benefit to the patient rather than for any physiological effect.

- a substance that has no therapeutic effect, used as a control in testing new drugs.

- a measure designed merely to humour or placate someone.

(From pop-up Oxford dictionary)

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CaitO'Ceallaigh
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 Message 295 of 430
04 May 2008 at 9:29am | IP Logged 
I don't know who brought "placebo" into this discussion. Let's change the word to "marketing" and see where that takes us.
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slucido
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 Message 296 of 430
04 May 2008 at 11:50am | IP Logged 
CaitO'Ceallaigh wrote:
I don't know who brought "placebo" into this discussion. Let's change the word to "marketing" and see where that takes us.


Serpent said it was Frenkle, but it doesn't matter who was and what word we use. The underling problem was tackled in previous posts.

Most people need that their feelings are objective, real and obvious, like things. They can not stand their feelings are subjetive.

Most people can not stand that their 'best method' is the 'best' because of a subjective feeling. They need their 'best method' is the 'best' due to objective, solid and irrefutable facts and reasons. If you challenge that, if you say that is a delusion, you can expect strong reactions.

It happens all the time about whatever subject.

I think it's better to recognize our subjetive nature, because it gives us more freedom. I feel free to change all my bests methods today.












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