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Best Method or More Time ? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| ChrisWebb Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6264 days ago 181 posts - 190 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Korean | Message 321 of 430 05 May 2008 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
Frankly it says it all that even you who wishes to defend him has had to ask him to clarify that you actually understand him. It's perfectly understandable though as it's hard to understand someone who uses language in so fuzzy a way that it is not obvious what he means by various words and phrases. For my part I wish his arguement were actually what you claim as these points are so obvious as to be barely worth noting. The fact they are so obvious makes me very suspicious that I am not misunderstanding anything at all though. If, however, his point is that you can walk 1000 miles and get there as effectively as taking a train or a bus then he is superficially correct, though to not note the blisters ( representative of unnecessary pain ) along with the wasted time and associated opportunity cost would seem to be almost negligent. It would also be negligent not to note that the bus or train will get you there quicker even if you hate buses and trains but love walking. Edited by ChrisWebb on 05 May 2008 at 3:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 322 of 430 05 May 2008 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | |||||
Please, change your frame. If you want native fluency, most of your time will be spent with real, natives material, without any specific method. Your path between basic level and high intermediate level is much shorter than the path between advanced level and native fluency. Most of this time, even at intermediate stage, will be used with native materials without any specific method. You, me and whoever. Methods at basic stages make sense as long as get you motivated up to levels when you don't need any method , like in your native language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6858 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 323 of 430 05 May 2008 at 4:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, it's called "communication". There is value in trying to understand what people are trying to say, versus arguing with what you think they're saying, or, even worse, with what you want them to be saying. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 324 of 430 05 May 2008 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
Several people agree with me and understand my basic and simple idea. Please, change your frame. If you want native fluency (1000 miles), 900 miles (or much more) will be spent WITHOUT any method. You will use real, native materials most of the time (listening and talking) Your frame is that you need 'methods' all the time (1,000 miles) that's not true. Nobody arrives to native fluency 'with methods'. Specifics methods make sense at the FIRST MILES. Their main function is getting you motivated up to the level when you do NOT need any specific method. Your have different tools for the first miles. You have a unique tool with the next 950 miles : the target language itself. Please, change frame. Edited by slucido on 05 May 2008 at 4:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 325 of 430 05 May 2008 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
I am not sure about this. I roughly define as high intermediate the stage when you have accumulated some 15,000 words, i.e, have fairly good reading skills. This can easily take a couple of years, which is not a short time period. Also, let's not forget that some people don't study languages to a native fluency level. If your considerations only apply to this particular case, they will be of little relevance to a large fraction of the forum members, and for the remaining minority, to a good fraction of their languages. Just for you to ponder, and without having to answer this question in public, do you yourself _really_ have a goal of native fluency in English?
Based on my experience with Spanish versus German, how one goes about accumulating vocabulary from the native sources one reads may have a significant effect on how long it takes to accumulate 15,000 words. Perhaps some people won't call the use of flashcards a "method", but it really is a method, a method for retaining vocabulary. Ask Katie to get rid of SuperMemo and Mnemosyne on her computer and see if she still likes you. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6448 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 326 of 430 05 May 2008 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Native level proficiency is not an issue nor have I stated one needs trademarked methods all the time. Methodical approach for a long time, maybe. Methods are supposed to propel you to a certain level. Does that happen because of their trademarked design or solely thanks to the input-output coupled with motivation etc.?
You are arguing that differences between methods are meaningless, ornamental etc effectively reducing them to the basic formula sprinkled with the flavor of the day. It does not help if you then say that methods are different (but the difference is meaningless) and that methods share the same input-output formula grounded in the same language and then against all evidence to the contrary follow up with a statement that such a method is not therefore reduced to input-output. You also state that methods are different due to belief and motivation, which are external factors. Belief in what? The ornaments? How can such a belief exist if differences between methods are meaningless? You also dwell too much perhaps on people's feelings, discouragement etc. People are capable to bring gruesome tasks to a successful completion. They usually follow a method, a plan of action. Motivation is a separate issue from method's design and motivation does not have to include fun or fluffy feelings. Usually time is a factor, not just time on the job but simply effective use of one's time to accomplish a task. If the method works because of the way it's designed, and not simply due to the underlying input-output it is effective and all signs point that some methods are more effective than others. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 327 of 430 05 May 2008 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I am going to sleep and I will answer tomorrow. However I want to give you this article I have found.
I like this sentence: It's that simple. Everything else is decoration It's seems Katie and me aren't alone. http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/dont-try-to-learn- a-language
It's interesting. Maybe the "best method" is the "simplest method"... Edited by slucido on 05 May 2008 at 5:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6858 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 328 of 430 05 May 2008 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
I don't think Slucido would do that because it's working for me right now. Where did you get that he said that I shouldn't? Edit: Where did you get that HE WOULD say that I shouldn't? Edited by CaitO'Ceallaigh on 05 May 2008 at 5:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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