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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6944 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German
| Message 409 of 430 10 May 2008 at 6:51am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
| It is interesting mostly as a scientific question. From the standpoint of practical language-learning it is not as interesting because it has only tangential bearing on what one ends up doing. |
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Then why do you ask the question? |
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Because when Serpent said, "... that doesn't mean that sensible methods (that involve input+output+time) are equally effective," you answered with a question, "What evidence we have apart from subjetive preferences?"
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
| I meant the underlying mechanism of language acquisition, i.e., the intrinsic way brain circuits learn, not the psychological factors. |
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Whatever method o factor you choose, has its brain circuits, including psychological factors. All this brain circuits overlap. |
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Input, output and time are common factors among all language-learning experiences.
It is an additional assumption that without motivation one doesn't put in the time, but this is not true - motivation is not a common factor. People often assume that it is, but it isn't - there are circumstances when one can learn a language without being particularly motivated. Plenty of people have learned to play the piano because their parents forced them to do it. I heard a few similar stories from people about languages.
Motivation would only matter directly if one needed to be in an exalted state of mind to be able to learn at all, which is not the case.
slucido wrote:
| Massive practice is another common factor ... |
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Massive practice is the same as "input+output" (practice) and "time" (massive).
sluciodo wrote:
| In fact, the goal of this thread was talking about TIME, how manage time and how to increase time, and not about best methods. |
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Another way to "increase time" is to use it more efficiently. Good methods help one use it more efficiently.
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 410 of 430 10 May 2008 at 8:16am | IP Logged |
frenkeld wrote:
It is an additional assumption that without motivation one doesn't put in the time, but this is not true - motivation is not a common factor. People often assume that it is, but it isn't - there are circumstances when one can learn a language without being particularly motivated. Plenty of people have learned to play the piano because their parents forced them to do it. I heard a few similar stories from people about languages.
Motivation would only matter directly if one needed to be in an exalted state of mind to be able to learn at all, which is not the case. |
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:-)))
Do you believe what you just have written?
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
| Massive practice is another common factor ... |
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Massive practice is the same as "input+output" (practice) and "time" (massive). |
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Yes, and what?
frenkeld wrote:
sluciodo wrote:
| In fact, the goal of this thread was talking about TIME, how manage time and how to increase time, and not about best methods. |
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Another way to "increase time" is to use it more efficiently. Good methods help one use it more efficiently.
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Yet again...What are those more efficient methods apart from intensive and extensive USE of the language?
After 408 replies and 51 pages, we are stuck with the same question?
1 person has voted this message useful
| reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6448 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes
Studies: German
| Message 411 of 430 10 May 2008 at 10:15am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
It is an additional assumption that without motivation one doesn't put in the time, but this is not true - motivation is not a common factor. People often assume that it is, but it isn't - there are circumstances when one can learn a language without being particularly motivated. Plenty of people have learned to play the piano because their parents forced them to do it. I heard a few similar stories from people about languages.
Motivation would only matter directly if one needed to be in an exalted state of mind to be able to learn at all, which is not the case. |
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:-)))
Do you believe what you just have written?
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Generations of people had French or Latin beaten into them.
Motivation is a crucial factor, and it is sort of always present even if only in the form of external motivation like the need to satisfy parents or avoid the whip. It is obvious however that all things being equal a willing learner is more likely to succeed.
As a separate point I disagree that one needs fluffy bunnies in order to learn a language. Fun is not a necessary ingredient in all the aspects of the learning process. It's of great help, but insisting on it at the expense of learning is detrimental and a sign of trouble. The logical conclusion would be that the person likes the idea of acquiring the object and having fun but that he's not prepared to do the necessary to accomplish the task.
Few people approach a language from the point of view of an enamoured linguist. Anyone with great passion for a particular language would sooner rather than later look under the hood, use grammars etc. People may arguably fall in love with the sound of the language etc. rather than its inner mechanism etc. but insisting on this too much often betrays the lack of a real need or motivation for learning any language. For most people where love, passion or plain old-fashioned interest come into play is in what a particular language can do for you and this is why even here among "language lovers" and with some 5000 or so languages to choose from the great majority of us share virtually identical language target lists and always talk about a dozen or so of old faithfuls.
Edited by reineke on 10 May 2008 at 10:27am
1 person has voted this message useful
| slucido
Bilingual Diglot
Senior Member
Spain
https://goo.gl/126Yv
Joined 6676 days ago
1296 posts - 1781 votes
4 sounds
Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan*
Studies: English
| Message 412 of 430 10 May 2008 at 10:31am | IP Logged |
reineke wrote:
Generations of people had French or Latin beaten into them.
Motivation is a crucial factor, and it is sort of always present even if only in the form of exterior motivation like the need to satisfy parents or avoid the whip. It is obvious however that all things being equal a willing learner is more likely to succeed.
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As I said before, hate and fear are types of motivation, but I think they are not very healthy.
reineke wrote:
As a separate point I disagree that one needs fluffy bunnies in order to learn a language. Fun is not a necessary ingredient in all the aspects of the learning process. It's of great help, but insisting on it at the expense of learning is detrimental and a sign of trouble. The logical conclusion would be that the person likes the idea of acquiring the object and having fun but that he's not prepared to do the necessary to accomplish the task. |
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Yet again talking about angels....
reineke wrote:
Few people approach a language from the point of view of an enamored linguist. Anyone with great passion for a particular language would sooner rather than later look under the hood, use grammars etc. People may arguably fall in love with the sound of the language etc. rather than its inner mechanism etc. but insisting on this too much often betrays the lack of a real need or motivation for learning any language. For most people where love, passion or plain old-fashioned interest come into play is in what a particular language can do for you and this is why even here among "language lovers" and with some 5000 or so languages to choose from the great majority of us share virtually identical language target lists and always talk about a dozen or so of old faithfuls. |
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We know that different persons have different motives and money is one of them. It's very interesting, but...
What are the more efficient or sensible methods apart from intensive and extensive USAGE of the language?
Do we need 500 additional messages?
1 person has voted this message useful
| reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6448 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes
Studies: German
| Message 413 of 430 10 May 2008 at 11:10am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
reineke wrote:
Generations of people had French or Latin beaten into them.
Motivation is a crucial factor, and it is sort of always present even if only in the form of exterior motivation like the need to satisfy parents or avoid the whip. It is obvious however that all things being equal a willing learner is more likely to succeed.
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As I said before, hate and fear are types of motivation, but I think they are not very healthy.
reineke wrote:
As a separate point I disagree that one needs fluffy bunnies in order to learn a language. Fun is not a necessary ingredient in all the aspects of the learning process. It's of great help, but insisting on it at the expense of learning is detrimental and a sign of trouble. The logical conclusion would be that the person likes the idea of acquiring the object and having fun but that he's not prepared to do the necessary to accomplish the task. |
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Yet again talking about angels....
reineke wrote:
Few people approach a language from the point of view of an enamored linguist. Anyone with great passion for a particular language would sooner rather than later look under the hood, use grammars etc. People may arguably fall in love with the sound of the language etc. rather than its inner mechanism etc. but insisting on this too much often betrays the lack of a real need or motivation for learning any language. For most people where love, passion or plain old-fashioned interest come into play is in what a particular language can do for you and this is why even here among "language lovers" and with some 5000 or so languages to choose from the great majority of us share virtually identical language target lists and always talk about a dozen or so of old faithfuls. |
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We know that different persons have different motives and money is one of them. It's very interesting, but...
What are the more efficient or sensible methods apart from intensive and extensive USAGE of the language?
Do we need 500 additional messages?
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If I was under any wrong impression whatsoever, you are certainly the one to blame. I was not referring to money in particular. You sort of seem to confuse the love for a language and the love for what that language can provide - in your case, movies. For a beginner, just about anything reputable you can buy that has a head and a tail that facilitates learning and provides easy access to meaning, other than the motherless "language use" (intensive or extensive). Watching movies is not a method. Dictionaries rule!
Edited by reineke on 10 May 2008 at 11:25am
1 person has voted this message useful
| frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 6944 days ago
2042 posts - 2719 votes
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German
| Message 414 of 430 10 May 2008 at 11:43am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
It is an additional assumption that without motivation one doesn't put in the time, but this is not true - motivation is not a common factor. People often assume that it is, but it isn't ...
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Motivation would only matter directly if one needed to be in an exalted state of mind to be able to learn at all, which is not the case. |
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Do you believe what you just have written? |
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Yes, I do, contrary even to what reineke says in the previous post. The problem with discussing whether motivation is needed is that it is easy to get stuck on definitions.
One kind of motivation is one you talked about, the kind that makes one spend more and more time on the language. This implies being very excited about the language. I believe this excitement is nice, but not necessary.
Another kind of motivation is a simple act of volition. Surely, one has to make a decision to learn a language, set aside some daily study time for it, and stick to the schedule. All of this can be accomplished without excitement and is too trivial to merit further discussion. I will, however, provide an illustration by analogy.
Imagine yourself in a big city needing a restroom. At first it is a simple act of volition – you’d like to go to the bathroom, but there is no excitement and no real motivation involved. In about half an hour,. if you still haven’t found the bathroom, you become very motivated and may even slip down the civilizational tree and head for the nearest bush. My claim is that one can still learn a language with the bathroom readily available.
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
| Massive practice is another common factor ... |
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Massive practice is the same as "input+output" (practice) and "time" (massive). |
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Yes, and what? |
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You said "massive practice" was another common factor, I showed that it was not an additional factor. Just trying not to allow the concepts to proliferate unnecessarily.
sluciodo wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
| Another way to "increase time" is to use it more efficiently. Good methods help one use it more efficiently. |
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Yet again...What are those more efficient methods apart from intensive and extensive USE of the language?
After 408 replies and 51 pages, we are stuck with the same question? |
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It took this forum several years and a lot more than 408 replies and 51 pages to hash out the various options for language learning. There is nothing we are going to be able to add to that store of knowledge in this thread – all you need to do is try out a few things and decide what works best for you. It appears that you have already done that and are having success with electronic flashcards. They are now an important part of your method.
Edited by frenkeld on 10 May 2008 at 11:45am
1 person has voted this message useful
| reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6448 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes
Studies: German
| Message 415 of 430 10 May 2008 at 11:57am | IP Logged |
slucido wrote:
I think that methods are not that important. The most important factor is TIME and LOVE devoted to the target language.
Thinking about that, I think the best methods are those that manages to scratch more of your time without you been aware.
For example, I think the DVD movie methods are the best.Why? Because people devote more time to the language without been aware.
Time flies when you're having fun
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DaraghM wrote:
| If time is limited, are some methods not a more efficient use of time than others ? Why is it that an hour of Michel Thomas, FSI, L-R, or Assimil, seems a lot more effective than some other courses, such as Teach Yourself X ? |
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asad100101 wrote:
| Effective method is directly proportional to more time spent on the language without getting bored. If you love watching movies,you will spend more time on watching them. |
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ipanema wrote:
I think it was somewhere in this forum where a person sited an experiment by a guy that tried to see if he could
learn a language simply by "osmosis", if you will. Without actively studying the language--I believe it was Thai-- he listened to it for several hours per day, only. After several months of only listening, he learned 56 words. Lots of time spent, but very ineffectively.
I think people tend to want to find that ultimate ONE WAY to learn a language. But I believe that's unrealistic. I feel that each of us have to find the best way that suits us as individuals, but do it efficiently. The more efficiently we use our time, the more we get out of it and the more we enjoy it. I'm also of the belief that a person's approach should be varied: some time spent on reading, passive listening, writing, repeating, conversing, etc.
So, a combination of fun and enjoyment, time spent, consistency, variety of effective methods and approaches, etc. is key. That's my opinion, anyway. ^^ |
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luke wrote:
One of the "Lessons Learned from 50 Years of FSI Experience" was that "time on task" is one of the key success factors. Of course in that context, they already have an effective and proven methodology.
So, having said that, I think that a bit of experimentation to find what works for me personally has been useful. I also know that it is easy for me to waste too much time thinking about how to learn more effectively, rather than actually learning. |
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leosmith wrote:
Very cool to see all these methods listed in one place. I agree that time is extreemly important, but I also agree that one needs comprehensible input to be able to learn. So I think it's impossible to say one is more important than the other.
If you rephrased the question a little, for example "If you choose from several dozen established methods that utilize comprehensible input (i+1), which is more important - time on task, or method?" I would say time on task. |
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Leopejo wrote:
slucido wrote:
I think the common factor is TIME and a lot of dedication to the language.
Dedication with input (comprehensible or not), but output as well. |
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A common factor? Methods devised by knowledgeable and professional people, tried, refined and found to work, geared towards a specific audience. This latter, as previously said, is a factor that makes one method different from another.
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| On the other hand, I think language courses are delusional. If you aim to native fluency, what you learn with those courses is a tiny fraction towars your goal. |
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But the most important fraction. The first step is fundamental. It is those methods that give you all the means you need to complete your quest.
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| When you achieve your native fluency,the influence of those courses in your way is extremely low. |
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I disagree here. They are the building blocks. Are you saying that the first few years are not important for the language learning of a child - even if he'll learn much more in school years?
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People spend most of their way with real native resources (input and output) regardless of their learning style. It's much more important interesting content than learning styles.
When I talk about time, I am talking about a lot of hours and a lot of days, months and years every day...devoted to the target language.
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IF people arrive to the point of spending time with native resources. A good method, as opposed to a not so good one, makes arriving to that point much more a) easier, b) faster, c) probable (a bad method and it's easier for you to abandon that language, or even all language studying).
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frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
| I think the common factor is TIME and a lot of dedication to the language. |
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But slucido, these common factors are both very general and, I would say, self-evident. Everyone knows learning a language requires an investement of time, and everyone knows one has to be motivated to learn it in order to succeed. The need for comprehensible input and practicing output are also close to self-evident – one has to read, write, listen, and speak to develop one’s language skills.
The above are the ground rules – efficiency depends on the implementation. If there are no other common factors, the secret must be in the differences, not in the common factors.
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So it doesn't get lost in all the noise. I believe your question has been answered, repeatedly. Going back to your original question, methods are very important, even assuming everything else you wrote was true and this is reflected in your often contradictory posts and statements.
Edited by reineke on 10 May 2008 at 12:07pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| reineke
Senior Member
United States
https://learnalangua
Joined 6448 days ago
851 posts - 1008 votes
Studies: German
| Message 416 of 430 10 May 2008 at 12:49pm | IP Logged |
frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
It is an additional assumption that without motivation one doesn't put in the time, but this is not true - motivation is not a common factor. People often assume that it is, but it isn't ...
...
Motivation would only matter directly if one needed to be in an exalted state of mind to be able to learn at all, which is not the case. |
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Do you believe what you just have written? |
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Yes, I do, contrary even to what reineke says in the previous post. The problem with discussing whether motivation is needed is that it is easy to get stuck on definitions.
One kind of motivation is one you talked about, the kind that makes one spend more and more time on the language. This implies being very excited about the language. I believe this excitement is nice, but not necessary.
Another kind of motivation is a simple act of volition. Surely, one has to make a decision to learn a language, set aside some daily study time for it, and stick to the schedule. All of this can be accomplished without excitement and is too trivial to merit further discussion. I will, however, provide an illustration by analogy.
Imagine yourself in a big city needing a restroom. At first it is a simple act of volition – you’d like to go to the bathroom, but there is no excitement and no real motivation involved. In about half an hour,. if you still haven’t found the bathroom, you become very motivated and may even slip down the civilizational tree and head for the nearest bush. My claim is that one can still learn a language with the bathroom readily available.
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Nothing's too trivial for us. I see a problem in your bathroom analogy. We seek the bathroom because we anticipate great need and physical pain. We were conditioned to do so. Great cities don't provide many convenient bushes (or even bathrooms).
Your learning effort is not comparable since you can skip a lesson or two (or three) and escape unpunished. This necessarily results in your actually doing so, probably on weekly basis while I don't believe you missed the appointment with the bathroom since early childhood.
Now on to your learning a foreign language as a simple act of volition. This in itself is a hard task and I can imagine a frame of mind where this Greek or samurai sutra-reciting type of cold mental exercise might provide a sense of pleasure and accomplishment which in itself is a type of motivation.
Edited by reineke on 10 May 2008 at 12:52pm
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