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 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies |  | |
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes  Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 425 of 430 10 May 2008 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
Like any commonly used word, in a highly sophisticated and nuanced discussion the concept of "motivation" can become ambiguous. To disambiguate it, I drew a distinction between motivation that is accompanied by an exalted state of mind, and the plain vanilla motivation that consists in little else than making a decision to carry out a certain task and a modicum of persistence to bring that task to completion. In the latter case, one is considered motivated even if one remains fully bored while carrying out this task, as lone as one persists for whatever valid or perverse reason. One of the perverse reasons may actually be boredom itself - there is nothing new in doing something boring and repetitive in order to combat the more unstructured existential ennui, and it can still result in languages learned. The reason I care whether motivation is the kind that is accompanied by an exalted state of mind is because it is not an altogether impossible hypothesis that being in that state can make us more receptive to the meaning of the language input, i.e., more adroit at deciphering its meaning, which may speed up the learning. A sufficiently lazy aimless adult brought up on the latest teaching methodologies of today's schools may be unable to accomplish anything without that excitement. I do not, however, believe it is an innate condition of human mind to need to be in that type of exalted state to be able to acquire a language at all. Fundamentally, one needs to be willing to carry on. If you want to call that "motivation" in all cases, I am game. My claim is that not everyone needs to be excited in order to learn. This is basically your assertion that insisting on "having fun" all the time may not be the best approach. Note that slucido often used the word "motivation" in the context of needing to be excited about the language, and it is this assertion I am mostly at odds with. Coming back to the bathroom, I used the scatological analogy for comic relief. This whole thread being one already, I am willing to look at other examples. A child learning a language, of course. No motivation, it just happens.
I haven't missed any, but I have delayed a few. Edited by frenkeld on 10 May 2008 at 7:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6944 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 426 of 430 10 May 2008 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
Your claim of our agreement is based on characterizing all the learning techniques discussed in this forum since its inception as "subjective preferences". Since I haven't seen sufficient evidence to accept the validity of this characterization, we are not in agreement. You are right in the following sense. If you look at various successful ways of learning, input and output are always there, while it is hard to think of any other component of learning that is not indispensable. Flashcards, for example. Some use them, but they are not necessary. However, there is a wider class of tools called memorization aids. It can be flashcards, massive repetition, words lists, whatever. No one of them is critical and can be replaced by another. However, a learner with poor memory would be ill-served by using no memorization technique at all, and this is an objective statement. Likewise, someone who remembers words after seeing them only once or twice would be wasting his time with flashcards. This is also an objective statement. These are not the only objective statements one can make about language learning, but it is, of course, also true, that many statements that have been made are indeed subjective. The point is, not all of them are. Edited by frenkeld on 10 May 2008 at 7:48pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6858 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 427 of 430 10 May 2008 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | |||||
You're wrong about that. Don't have the time to dig up the valid scientific research to back up the following assertion, but children learn language 100% by motivation. It is a means to get what they want. Their motivation is so strong, they use language before they know any WORDS. I learned this in a linguistics class at U.C. Berkeley, taught by a Ph.D. Forgot to ask about the validity of the research, but you can ask any mom, mine especially, and she will concur. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| CaitO'Ceallaigh Triglot Senior Member United States katiekelly.wordpress Joined 6858 days ago 795 posts - 829 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Russian Studies: Czech, German | Message 428 of 430 10 May 2008 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Slucido, let's stop abusing ourselves. This is all just plain crazy making and pointless, unless you're getting extra English practice out of this, but frankly, I can think of more enjoyable ways!
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| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 429 of 430 11 May 2008 at 2:53am | IP Logged | |||||
I agree with you. If you review my messages, you will read that I am against the placebo idea. This exist, but I think it's not the unique factor. Memory is a specific psychological part of our mind. I don't know the percentage, but mnemonic tricks are useful for some people. In the long run there aren't differences between using mnemonics or not. You always will need to fix vocabulary and grammar structures to a reflex or unconscious level. Nevertheless, in short term mnemonics could have strong effects in your motivation, because you will feel that you learn faster. On the other side, some experts claim that mnemonics it's not necessary at all and you only need enough graded readers and repetition. Mnemonics has several effects: -Linguistic: No meaningful. You are just using the language. -Specific psychological effect: Improving your short term memory and increasing your motivation. -Unspecific (placebo): Feeling that you are doing something useful. Edited by slucido on 11 May 2008 at 2:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6676 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 430 of 430 11 May 2008 at 2:56am | IP Logged | |||||
You are right. This is becoming aggressive, repetitive and boring. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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