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Best Method or More Time ?

 Language Learning Forum : Learning Techniques, Methods & Strategies Post Reply
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frenkeld
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 Message 65 of 430
24 April 2008 at 3:45pm | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
That's the whole point, by properly choosing the approach, the materials, the tools, one can proceed faster or slower.

Again, if you want to get native fluency, you will use native material most of the way.
The tools are always the same: listening, reading and interacting with real materials.
...
Regarding the global way to native fluency, it's a fact that I will need tons of native, real materials.

My point applies even if you use nothing but native (i.e., unabridged) materials from the very beginning. I stated that one has to choose the materials, the approach, and the tools. OK, so for materials you choose native materials - I also happen to be allergic to FSI, Pimsleur, and Assimil, so I am willing to sign off on your choice of materials :), at least for easier languages.

You still have to deal with the approach and the tools. You are not revealing the whole picture when you say, "The tools are always the same: listening, reading and interacting with real materials". Let's look at three different stages of learning, which we very loosely define as beginner (up to the first 2500 words), intermediate (up to the first 15,000 words), and advanced.

Reading can be done in rather different ways in the beginner and even intermediate stages. You can read with or without a dictionary, you can use a paper or electronic dictionary, and finally you can use bilingual editions, or use sources for which you have a complete translation as a separate book. There is also the memorization issue - do you memorize vocabulary or do you just look it up and let it get absorbed over time. In the more advanced stages reading will be more similar to that in your native language, but the beginner and intermediate stage can easily take up something like two years out of, say, ten years it will take you to become very advanced in a language, so if you could save one out of the first two years by being more efficient, it would still be a significant gain in overall efficiency. For people interested in more than one language this gain may be crucial.

To recap, first of all, the beginner and intermediate stages in learning are not a tiny blip on a long road towards very advanced knowledge, they are still a meaningful chunk of time that may be worth optimizing, and secondly, one can work in different ways even with native materials.

Even in the advanced stage, how you go about improvement can make a big difference. For example, if someone wants to write very well in the target language, it might save a considerable amount of time if one finds a native instructor who can correct one's writing. The approach and the tools matter. (And we haven't even gotten into the issue of grammar study.)


slucido wrote:
The tools are whatever you feel like doing WITH your target language, because you will feel more motivated and you will spend more time. This all issue is more psychological than linguistic.
...
Start with native materials from the very beginning is another delusion. This approach is very good as long as I feel I am domesticating the beast from the beginning and that is a very good psychological effect for me.

I use movies, sitcoms, radio and SRS, but those methods are delusions as well. Those are good methods as long as I feel good, I feel I am improving, I feel more motivation and I work harder and MORE TIME.


One has to be careful not to let motivational factors slip into self-indulgence. At the end of the day, a rational being may want to ask him or herself whether the psychological benefits of the feeling that one is "domesticating the beast" are worth an extra year or two for the beginner and intermediate phase just because one simply has to do things a certain way and no other way.

Otherwise, one should simply concede that one is using inefficient methods, but one has no choice because one is not motivated enough about the language to speed things up with a bit of bitter medicine. (I personally often opt for self-indulgence, but I am honest with myself about the trade-offs.)


Edited by frenkeld on 24 April 2008 at 4:30pm
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Farley
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 Message 66 of 430
24 April 2008 at 9:44pm | IP Logged 
I'd have to side with frenkeld on this issue: Work smarter not harder.

You can strive for overall efficiency. Granted what is efficient and inefficient will vary from person to person but there are still some main patterns to follow. To extend frenkeld's analogy with reading and memorization, you have choices with the use of audio. You can drill with audio-lingual courses, shad-echo with dual text courses (Assimil) or even skip the audio courses in favor of text books using only the simplest of audio material to practice pronunciation.

Edit:

Let's call it a given that time and effort pay off in end and that listening, reading, speaking and writing are all parts of learning a language. There are still some artificial methods adults can use for language learning.

Think of a graph. On the Y axis audio vs text and on the X axis dual-text vs question and response. Overall efficiency means make some trade-offs and finding your best combination on the graph.

        dual-text vs q-a
Shad-echoing   Audio lingual
                                                 audio vs text
Dual Text       Note cards

I know the example is not perfect.



Edited by Farley on 24 April 2008 at 10:36pm
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slucido
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 Message 67 of 430
25 April 2008 at 2:54am | IP Logged 
leosmith wrote:
slucido wrote:
I would use real thing from the beginning. DVD with subtitles in my own language, without subtitles, listening real radio and audio books passively or actively, as it were music. As newspapers is concerned, I would begin as soon as possible.

I tried this with reading Japanese. It was terribly inefficient for me. I've tried watching movies, with subtitles, in languages I don't understand very well. Also, terribly inefficient for me. I find using simplified language learning materials much more efficient in the beginning. I don't doubt that your method works well for you - different learning styles and all. But perhapse it doesn't work well for everyone. Will you not admit to that possibility, or do you insist that people don't learn differently?


I don't believe in different learning styles. I think our brain is very similar and the differences are tiny. I believe those quoted differences are more about motivational factors based in social pressure and life experiences pressures outside this subject. This pressure can be against facts.

For example:

-Is a fact that spaced repetition is extremely efficient whatever you study for long term memory, but I have read people who don't like it. Why?

-Is a fact that mind maps are very useful, but I don't like it. Why? Because I don't like marketers who has stolen it to investigators. I feel repugnance.

Regarding learning languages, I think it's more obvious. As I said before, ultimately, if we learn any language, we learn it in the same fashion.



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slucido
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 Message 68 of 430
25 April 2008 at 3:07am | IP Logged 
edwin wrote:

1) Talk to yourself. you can do this anywhere, or at least alone if you don't want to be mistaken as a psycho. I have heard many successful stories on this. I myself is trying, but I don't have a lot to talk about with myself.
.....
As for writing, I cannot think of anything that you can do in your 'hidden time'.


Good points.

Talking or thinking in the target language is a good trick to scratch time all over the day.

Regarding writing, I think we can scratch time if we write in the target languages when   it's not strictly necessary to write in our own language. It's astonishing to know how much time I have lost without been aware.



Edited by slucido on 25 April 2008 at 4:07am
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slucido
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 Message 69 of 430
25 April 2008 at 3:56am | IP Logged 
Frenkle, I am reading you and I get the funny feeling that you are fighting against air.

Let's summarize my point of view regarding learning languages to native fluency:

1-TONS of dedication, love and motivation working with the target language= TIME

2-The specific methods and techniques are unimportant as long as you follow point one. Globally, most of your time will be spent listening, reading, speaking and writing.


frenkeld wrote:
slucido wrote:
frenkeld wrote:
That's the whole point, by properly choosing the approach, the materials, the tools, one can proceed faster or slower.

Again, if you want to get native fluency, you will use native material most of the way.
The tools are always the same: listening, reading and interacting with real materials.
...
Regarding the global way to native fluency, it's a fact that I will need tons of native, real materials.


My point applies even if you use nothing but native (i.e., unabridged) materials from the very beginning. I stated that one has to choose the materials, the approach, and the tools. OK, so for materials you choose native materials - I also happen to be allergic to FSI, Pimsleur, and Assimil, so I am willing to sign off on your choice of materials :), at least for easier languages.

You still have to deal with the approach and the tools. You are not revealing the whole picture when you say, "The tools are always the same: listening, reading and interacting with real materials". Let's look at three different stages of learning, which we very loosely define as beginner (up to the first 2500 words), intermediate (up to the first 15,000 words), and advanced.

Reading can be done in rather different ways in the beginner and even intermediate stages. You can read with or without a dictionary, you can use a paper or electronic dictionary, and finally you can use bilingual editions, or use sources for which you have a complete translation as a separate book. There is also the memorization issue - do you memorize vocabulary or do you just look it up and let it get absorbed over time. In the more advanced stages reading will be more similar to that in your native language, but the beginner and intermediate stage can easily take up something like two years out of, say, ten years it will take you to become very advanced in a language, so if you could save one out of the first two years by being more efficient, it would still be a significant gain in overall efficiency. For people interested in more than one language this gain may be crucial.



I agree with you. I think I am not explaining well my point of view.

You can use a lot of approaches, but I think the supposed differences are misleading. As long as you work with your target language (listening, reading, speaking and writing), do whatever you want, whatever you feel like. Do whatever you want provided that you are motivated and spend TONS of TIME with the language.



frenkeld wrote:

To recap, first of all, the beginner and intermediate stages in learning are not a tiny blip on a long road towards very advanced knowledge, they are still a meaningful chunk of time that may be worth optimizing, and secondly, one can work in different ways even with native materials.
Even in the advanced stage, how you go about improvement can make a big difference. For example, if someone wants to write very well in the target language, it might save a considerable amount of time if one finds a native instructor who can correct one's writing. The approach and the tools matter. (And we haven't even gotten into the issue of grammar study.)




I agree with you, but my criterion is:

Try to work listening, speaking, writing and reading. Do whatever you FEEL LIKE with the language, as long as it gets you very motivated and working a lot of TIME.

If we want to write very well, we need tons of reading and writing.

If we want to speak very well, we need tons of listening and speaking.

Regarding grammar, study it when you feel like it or you think you need it. Wait the moment you have enough motivation.


frenkeld wrote:


slucido wrote:
The tools are whatever you feel like doing WITH your target language, because you will feel more motivated and you will spend more time. This all issue is more psychological than linguistic.
...
Start with native materials from the very beginning is another delusion. This approach is very good as long as I feel I am domesticating the beast from the beginning and that is a very good psychological effect for me.

I use movies, sitcoms, radio and SRS, but those methods are delusions as well. Those are good methods as long as I feel good, I feel I am improving, I feel more motivation and I work harder and MORE TIME.


One has to be careful not to let motivational factors slip into self-indulgence. At the end of the day, a rational being may want to ask him or herself whether the psychological benefits of the feeling that one is "domesticating the beast" are worth an extra year or two for the beginner and intermediate phase just because one simply has to do things a certain way and no other way.

Otherwise, one should simply concede that one is using inefficient methods, but one has no choice because one is not motivated enough about the language to speed things up with a bit of bitter medicine. (I personally often opt for self-indulgence, but I am honest with myself about the trade-offs.)


Motivation is the most important factor, because with lots of motivations you no self-indulge, you work more time and harder without been aware.

If you are not motivated, if you not are scratching a lot of time to your target language, you are not using a good method, even if that method has a lot of expert support and scientific evidence.
Throw it away.

And I agree with Farley: Work smarter not harder.

If you work smarter, you will be more motivated and you will work harder and more TIME,...regardless of the method.






Edited by slucido on 25 April 2008 at 4:03am
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fanatic
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 Message 70 of 430
25 April 2008 at 5:14am | IP Logged 
slucido wrote:

And I agree with Farley: Work smarter not harder.

If you work smarter, you will be more motivated and you will work harder and more TIME,...regardless of the method.


Consider the difference between different language learning courses where you learn a vocabulary of less than 1,000 words after 90 half-hour lessons, each repeated several times, against acquiring a vocabulary of several thousand words working only 45 hours over the same period of time. Method makes a huge difference.
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ChrisWebb
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 Message 71 of 430
25 April 2008 at 5:16am | IP Logged 
I think I have to echo Frankeld that the methods used as a beginner are certainly important. Perhaps that is a function of learning a language so far removed from my native one and perhaps it would be possible to dive straight in with a Germanic or romance language ( although that really just represents being able to leverage some English knowledge into similar languages ). I know from experience that with Korean it simply is not so, I would be thoroughly blocked if I could access only native material as it would be almost entirely impenetrable.

I think the point you are missing is twofold, firstly working with only native material might result in spending massively longer in the beginner stage than necessary and secondly it might even introduce some possiblility that you will never progress beyond the beginner stage.

Once you are past the beginner stage there is little doubt that native material is the way to grow your familiarity, the questions are how long you are willing to spend as a beginner and whether you are willing to risk never progressing beyond that stage.

As an aside even native children use beginner materials, the only difference is that theirs assume the presence of adult speakers to assist them whereas language courses for adult non-native speakers generally do not. For example, no English toddler is handed Dickens and instructed to learn to read, neither are they plonked in front of the TV and left to learn to speak, instead they are guided by their parents and/or others typically using specific materials designed for the task of teaching/learning.
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slucido
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 Message 72 of 430
25 April 2008 at 6:25am | IP Logged 
fanatic wrote:
slucido wrote:

And I agree with Farley: Work smarter not harder.

If you work smarter, you will be more motivated and you will work harder and more TIME,...regardless of the method.


Consider the difference between different language learning courses where you learn a vocabulary of less than 1,000 words after 90 half-hour lessons, each repeated several times, against acquiring a vocabulary of several thousand words working only 45 hours over the same period of time. Method makes a huge difference.


You are pointing out to TIME factor, like me, not the method per se. You think you save TIME with one method and you feel better, you get more motivated and you work more TIME. The psychological factor is important here and not the number of words. Other people can get better results with the "longer" method if they feel they are achieving better results, they become more motivated, they work harder, they work more TIME.

It's not about methods, is about psychological motivation and more time working with the language.







Edited by slucido on 25 April 2008 at 6:36am


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