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Hungarian - January challenge thread | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Multilingual Lounge |  | |
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes  Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 193 of 1549 05 March 2011 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ír - írva. But it is not passive in reality. In Hungarian there are 3 types of "igenév": 1. Főnévi igenév - infinitive (in Hungarian literally its "noun participle") 2. Melléknévi igenév - adjectival participle 3. Határozói igenév - adverbiak participle About the infinitive you know very well. The main speciality of the Hungarian infinitive is that it can be conjugated - írni: írnom, írnod, írnia, írnunk, írnotok, írniuk. You know many adjectival participles, as many Hungarian adjectives and nouns are in reality adjectival participles! For example the word "writer" in Hungarian is in reality a former present tense adjectival participle of the verb "write": ír - író. Adjectival participles have 3 tenses: - present: író - Az író ember szeret olvasni is. (The writing man likes to read too.) - past: írott - Ez a könyv kézzel írott. (This book was written by hand.) - future: írandó - A hivatalos levél holnapig megírandó. (The official letter has to be written until tomorrow.) The future tense is somewhat "higher style", in colloquial style the last sentence will be: "A hivatalos levelet holnapig meg kell írni." The adverbial participle is: írva. Example: Ez a könyv jól meg van írva. (This book is well written.) So there is no passive form, English passive is expressed by adverbial or adjectival participle. Edited by maxval on 05 March 2011 at 5:39pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7156 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 194 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 4:13am | IP Logged | |||||
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There is a dedicated Hungarian passive form but it is rarely used outside Biblical translations, officialese or legalese. For all intents and purposes you'd express the English passive in Hungarian using the participles as maxval posted (these were also what I was taught about expressing the passive when I was taking classes in Hungarian). In any case you'd more likely use the active voice instead of the passive or these quasi-passive forms unless you wanted to deemphasize the subject for whatever reason.
For the record, the true Hungarian passive is basically a transitive verb that's made into a causative one and then turned into an "-ikes" verb. If you want to indicate the agent, then use the postposition "által" or the suffix "-tól/-től". e.g. olvas- = "reads" > olvastat- = "he/she/it makes someone (else) read" > olvastatik = "he/she/it is read" Én olvasok egy levélet. (active) Én olvastatok egy levélet. (causative) A levél olvastatik általam. (passive present) A levél olvastatott általam. (passive past) A levél olvastatni fog általam. (passive future) Off the top of my head, the most frequently-used passive verb in modern Hungarian is születni "to be born" (< szülni "to give birth"). However most Hungarians don't even realize its historically passive nature. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 195 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 8:08am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, you are right. However this form is archaic. It is used only in a few words (your example "születik" is right) and in a few idiomatic sentences, for example "dicsértessék" as in the Catholic greeting "Dicsértessék Jézus Krisztus" (Praised be Jesus Christ). Present day Hungarian uses van + adverbial participle for this purpose or pure active verb construction. Even in legal texts it is not used any more. For example look at a banknote from the beginning of the 20th century http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/banknotes/austria/AustriaP12-100K ronen-1912_b.jpg - there is still used the passive form "A bankjegyek utánzása a törvény szerint büntettetik" (Copying of the banknotes is punished by the law), while in a banknote from the middle of the 20th century this form is no longer used http://aes.iupui.edu/rwise/banknotes/hungary/HungaryP99s-50P engo-1932-donatedvl_f.jpg "A bankjegyek utánzásáért törvényszabta büntetés jár" (For copying of the banknotes there is a punishment specified by the law). And about Bible translations. The Hungarian Catholic Church (nominally 60-65 % of the population of Hungary is a member) and the Hungarian Reformed Church (nominally 20-25 % of the population of Hungary is a member) use today mainly new translations. Here http://www.kereszteny.hu/biblia/showbible.php you can find three modern translations - two Catholic versions, and one Protestant version. Edited by maxval on 06 March 2011 at 8:16am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5349 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 196 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:20am | IP Logged | |||||
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So to clarify. Some translation attempts.
The book was written by Shakespeare. = A könyvt írott Shakespeare. The bridge was built in 1968. = 1968-ban építettek/épített a hídet. How would you say - I wanted to cross the bridge but I couldn't because it was still being built. I'll try it! - Akartam átmenni a hídet, de nem lehetett, mert még azt építettek. (I wanted to cross the bridge, but it wasn't possible because they were still building it) Does Hungarian use the 3rd person plural or singular when the agent was most likely more than one person? Can I use this active form in most cases where it would be passive in English? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 197 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:37am | IP Logged | |||||
No! If it is passive, than "könyv" will not be in Accusative. A könyvet Shakespeare írta is the correct form. If you want to say in passive style, it would be A könyv Shakespeare által íródott or A könyv Shakespeare által lett írva, but it is an absolutely artificial construction, nobody will say it this way. This passive style construction is very rare, it can be used only in some special sentences. For example in an adjectival construction: A Shakespeare által írott könyvek közül szerintem a legjobb a Hamlet. Of the books written by Shakespera, in my opinion, the best is Hamlet.
1968-ban építették a hídat - definite conjugatuion needes passive: Az 1968-ban épített híd a város keleti részén van - The bridge built in 1968 is in the eatern part of the city. So, as you can see, this "passive" is used mainly for adjectival constructions. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 198 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:47am | IP Logged | |||||
No. In most cases when English uses passive construction, Hungarian will prefer the use of active! For example: "The shop was robbed yesterday" - it can be in Hungarian as "A bolt tegnap ki lett rabolva", but much more frequent is "A boltot tegnap kirabolták" with use of normal active verb in plural 3rd person. or: "David Cameron was elected prime minister of the UK in 2010." - "David Cameron 2010-ben lett megválasztva az Egyesült Királyság miniszterelnökének." but much more frequently you will hear: "David Cameront 2010-ben választották meg az Egyesült Királyság miniszterelnökének." So: If possible, avoid the passive construction in Hungarian. It is much less frequent than in English. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 199 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:49am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes! This is the best option!!! Át akartam menni a hídon, de nem lehetett, mert még építették azt. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5349 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 200 of 1549 06 March 2011 at 10:52am | IP Logged | |||||
This is what I meant, I was trying to write it in the active form (not the passive), but to represent an English passive. I said írott instead of írta because I havenát learned the definite past tense yet! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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