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Hungarian - January challenge thread | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Multilingual Lounge |  | |
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes  Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 529 of 1549 29 April 2011 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
No. Vég is a noun, and végez is a verb. You confounded probably "végünk" and "végzünk". The first one is "our end" and the second one is "we finish". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 530 of 1549 30 April 2011 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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As I have promised, here is a brief explanation about coordination in number between subject and predícate in Hungarian sentences. I included examples too, partly from Hribeceks stories…
The “normal” cases are: 1. There is one subject, it is in singular and the predícate is in singular too: “Az esernyős férfi a földön van.” Note that in many cases there is a plural subject from a logical point of view, but gramatically it is a subject in singular, so the predícate is in singular too! Example: in the case of “A két fiú a barlangban van.”, the subject is in singular, not in plural (it is fiú, not fiúk!), no matter that this is logically plural (“two boys”), so the predícate is van, not vannak. Hungarian uses nouns always in singular after numerals, so in all such cases the predícate will be in singular. 2. There is one subject, it is in plural and the predícate is in plural too: “A férfiak bemennek a barlangba.” 3. More subjects, all in plural and the predícate is in plural too. “A férfiak és a fiúk kijönnek a barlangból.” 4. More subjects, all in singular – predícate is in singular! This should be noted, because this is different from the English language! “Az esernyős férfi és Elvis benéz a barlangba.” “Special” cases: 5. There is one subject in plural or more subjects, all in plural, but the predícate is in singular: This is strange, but happens often in two main cases: 5A. When the subject is in plural, but it expresses logically a singular subject, for example: “Az Egyesült Államok használja a Guantánamói támaszpontot”, not “használják”. It is like in English, so this is not strange for an English speaker. 5B. When there is a determinate in singular that concerns the plural subject or the plural subjects. Example, compare it with case 2: “A férfiak, ez a két veszélyes bűnöző, bemegy a barlangba.” – the determinate “a két veszélyes bűnöző” is in singular, so it influences on the predícate. 6. More subjects, all in singular – predícate is in plural! Not as in case 4. When this happens: 6A. When there is an expressed relationship between the two subjects. Example: “Az esernyős férfi és a testvére benéznek a barlangba.” – compare with case 4! In this case the predícate is in plural, no matter that both subjects are in singular, because the subjects have an expressed relationship. Lets take another example: lets suppose Benny and Elvis are brothers! If we say “Benny és Elvis benéz a barlangba.”, then the predícate is in singular, as per case 4. But if we say “Benny és a testvére , Elvis benéznek a barlangba.”, then we use the predícate in plural, as there is a relationship component, “testvére”. This relationship component is relevant only when it is expressed in the SAME sentence. If it is not expressed in the SAME sentence, then we use predícate in singulat as in case 4. So if we know from a previous sentence that they are brothers, but in the next sentence it is not expressed, then we follow “rule” 4 in this next sentence! 6B. Sometimes we dont follow the example of the case 4, and we use plural in case of subjects in singular. We say: “Az esernyős férfi és Elvis benéznek a barlangba.” – this was considered in the past as a mistake or as uneducated style, but it is becoming more and more frequent in coloquial speech, but ONLY when the predícate is AFTER the subject! If the predícate is before the subject, then this form is impossible, no Hungarian native speaker will say this way. You cannot say *“Benéznek a barlangba az esernyős férfi és Elvis.”*, you can say only “Benéz a barlangba az esernyős férfi és Elvis.” Usig predícate in plural with more subjets, all in singular, is called “logical coordination” between subject and predícate. However personally I advice not to use this form, better use in these cases the usual for, as per case 4. 7. Subject is in singular, but predícate is in plural. This happens in the following cases: 7A. When there is a determinate in plural that concerns the singular subject. This is the inverse case of 5B. Example: “A két férfi, ezek a veszélyes bűnözők, kimentek a barlangból - the determinate “ezek a veszélyes bűnözők” is in plural, so it influences on the predícate. 7B. When in a sentence there is a second clause with the same subject as in the first clause, but the subject is not expressed in the second clause. Example: “A két fiú kijött a barlangból, s meglátták az esernyős embert.” This is not compulsory, saying “A két fiú kijött a barlangból, s meglátta az esernyős embert.” Is also correct. 7C. When there is a subject in singular with an adverb expressing companion, and the subject is not expressed in the sentence. Example: “A feleségével egy szép szállodában laknak.” – note that this is correct only if the subject is not expressed. If the subject is expressed, then the predícate will be in singular only: “A férfi a feleségével egy szép szállodában lakik.” – “laknak” is incorrect in this case, because the subject (“férfi”) is expressed. Maybe there are other cases too, I dont remember more. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5349 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 531 of 1549 01 May 2011 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Köszönöm szépen az információt, nagyon érdekes. Azt hiszem, hogy majd nehezen mindent emlékszem, de remélem, hogy egy kicsit tudok emlékszeni.
Neked egy kérdésem van. Amikor mondom - "várok téged" és nem "várlak", hibát csinálok? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 532 of 1549 02 May 2011 at 9:31am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Hiba. Amikor а tárgy tárgyesetben van van, s az ige második személyben van, akkor mindenképpen a -lak/-lek alak használatos. Ha egyes számú az ige, akkor nem szükséges kitenni a "téged" szót, ha viszont többes számú, akkor mindenképpen ki kell tenni, hogy "titeket", "benneteket". Edited by maxval on 02 May 2011 at 9:39am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 533 of 1549 02 May 2011 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I forgot to mention a very important case! So there is a 7D case too. 7D. When subject is in singular, but logically means plural and for this reason the predícate is in plural too. This happens often in subordinated clauses. An example: "Az embereknek az a része, akik nem szeretik a labdarúgást, ritkán néz meccset a tévében." Note that "akik nem szeretik labdarúgást" is in plural, because it is influenced by "emberek", while the last clause is in singular again, as it is more influenced by "rész". The word "akik" in this case shows to "emberek", not to "rész". However this sentence may be told in singular only too, but in this case "akik" cannot be used, as it can be used only after persons in plural and "rész" is neither a person nor is in plural. So it will be: "Az embereknek az a része, amely nem szereti a labdarúgást, ritkán néz meccset a tévében." In this case "amely" shows to "rész". However I prefer using "amely" in this case. In colloquial speech many young people tend to mix up "aki", "ami"/"amely". I advice to any person learning Hungarian not to follow this habit. Use "aki" only for persons, and "ami"/"amely" only for things. In the high style there is also a difference between "ami" and "amely", but this difference now can be considered as lost, so now any "amely" can be replaced by "ami" - but not any "ami" can be replaced by "amely"! I will demonstrate now the difference: "A fiúk bementek a barlangba, ami megdöbbentette a férfiakat." - in this case "ami" relates to "a fiúk bementek a barlangba", in this case you cannot use "amely" "A fiúk bementek a barlangba, amely egy tó partján volt." - in this case "amely" relates only to "barlang" - in high style using here "ami" is considered "uneducated", however many people use freely "ami" too, so use it! 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5349 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 534 of 1549 02 May 2011 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
This is the same in English. It's very common (at least in South East England) to hear somebody say something like - 'Are you the one what done it?' A double 'mistake' here but, as I said, it's a common native one so can't really be considered a mistake anymore, although it sounds uneducated. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5073 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 535 of 1549 02 May 2011 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
In Hungarian "what" is never used instead of "who". Only "who" is used sometimes instead of "what". Originally it was used only for persons. Later for animals (pets). Now it is used for groups of people, institutions, teams, many other similar things. Sometimes it is used for other things too even. I dont like this usage, I never use "who" in this form. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| hribecek Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5349 days ago 1243 posts - 1458 votes Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian | Message 536 of 1549 03 May 2011 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Chapter 6 of my story.
Chapter 1 – page 58 Chapter 2 – page 6o Chapter 3 – page 62 Chapter 4 – page 64 Chapter 5 – page 65 Most importantly, to make these chapters useful for other learners too, every chapter is followed by Maxval’s corrections. I found this chapter a little trickier than usual, I think because there were some awkward descriptions for me and clarity was more important than usual. Maxval, I’ll be very surprised if you understand everything! I tried to employ information about singular and plural combinations but when writing it, (despite reading your notes three times) I struggled to have any feeling for which one I should use. AZ ESERNYŐ ALATT – A HATODIK FEJEZET Előttük egy nagy ajtó van, az ajtó sokkal nagyobb, mint normális ajtók és zart, mert egy nagy vasrúddal az ajtón van. Nincs a másik módon, amivel lehet a helyből kimenni. A fiúk az ajtóhoz megy és megnézi a vasrúddalt, úgy néz ki, hogy nagyon nehéz. Benny próbálja azt emelni fel, de nem lehet, mert túl nehéz. Benny Elvisnek mondja, hogy segítjen, így jön Elvis és próbálja azt Bennyvel emelni fel. Lassan azt emelik és akkor leesik a földre és ez egy nagyon zajt csinál és törtenik egy nagy hangos visszahang minden alagútokban. A fiúk biztosok, hogy ezt a zajt meghallották a férfiak. Megpróbálják újra az ajtót nyitni ki, de még nem lehet, mert még zart. Kell valamit csinálniuk és gyorsan! A helyben, ahol volt a vasrúddal, most egy furcsa lyuk van, mint egy kulcslyuk. Elvis megérinti a kulcslyukat és Benny az alagútat nézi, mert fél a férfiaktól és azt hiszi, hogy hamarosan jönnek. A kulcslyuk aranyból és ezért visszaemlékszik az esernyőt, mert aranyból is. Azt látja, hogy az esernyő alatt az egyik dolognak az ugyanazon alakja van, mint van a kulcslyuknak. Ebben a pillanatban Benny embereket hall és rájön, hogy már jönnek a férfiak. Elvis a kulcsat az esernyőből a kulcslyukba teszi be és azt megfordítja. Most Benny a férfiakat látja és ők őt is! Benny az ajtóhoz fut és Elvis azt kinyiti. Befutnak az ajtóba és gyorsan azt becsukják és bezarják. A férfiak az ajtót ütik és az egyik kiabálja – „Nyitjad ki az ajtót! Ott nagyon veszélyes, meg fogsz halni. Nem tudsz, mi ott van. Nem menj tovább, hallgatj engem legy szíves. Nem akarlak sebezni meg. Hissz engem!” Benny felelje – „Minket megölnek, ha az ajtót kinyitük, megölték a másik férfit!” Benny rájön, hogy mondta „minket” és most már tudják a férfiak, hogy két fiú van. „De ő nagyon rossz volt, meg akart téged vagy titeket ölni. Mi nem!” Mondja a férfi. „Nem hiszük magukat!” Felelje Benny. A fiúk nem nyitják ki az ajtót és megfordulnak és tovább mennek az ajtótól. Egy nagy nedves barlangot látják. A másik oldalon a barlangban egy más ajtó van, így a fiúk kezdenek oda menni. Mögöttük egy férfi kiabálja – „Oda nem menjetek, meg fogtok halni!” Edited by hribecek on 03 May 2011 at 12:02pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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