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Chung
Diglot
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20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 113 of 541
17 March 2012 at 10:39pm | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 9 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The course's dialogue was about Anssi and Jutta having drinks before going to the movies and planning to go shopping. There did not seem to be any grammatical point that got an inordinate amount of attention.

***

NORTHERN SAAMI

I have completed Chapter 25 of Davvin 2 (i.e. the thirteenth chapter of this volume) and among other things was introduced to the illative of certain pronouns, locative of the personal pronouns in dual and derivatives. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) Illative of selected pronouns:

mun ~ munnje; don ~ dutnje; son ~ sutnje
dat ~ dasa; gii ~ geasa


The illative forms of other useful pronouns are:

moai ~ munnuide; doai ~ dudnuide; soai ~ sudnuide
mii ~ midjiide
("we" [plural] ~ "(in)to/for us" [plural]; dii ~ didjiide; sii ~ sidjiide

mii ~ masa ("what" ~ "(in)to/for what")

2) Locative of personal pronouns in dual:

moai ~ munnos; doai ~ dudnos; soai ~ sudnos (see Chapter 8, 3 for locative of personal pronouns in singular and Chapter 13, 6 for locative of personal pronouns in plural.)

3) Derivatives in Northern Saami may not show consonant gradation.

E.g. vuoddji "driver"; vuoddjit "drivers" (cf. vuodjit "to drive"; vuoján "I drive" - i.e. gradation of dj ~ j)

Vocabulary of Chapter 25

áigá - "some time ago"
duohta - "true; reality"
gievkkan - "kitchen"
guoktelogiviđát - "twenty-fifth"
hilbes (attr.), hilbat (pred.) - "naughty, unruly"
hoavda - "director"
jearrat - "to ask"
jurddašit - "to think"
livččii - "(it) would be"
mánaigárdi - "kindergarten"
ohcanáigi - "time for application/registration"
ohcci - "applicant"
sámegielat - "Saamic; in the Saami language"
sierra - "separate"
siivu - "kind, well-behaved"
skuvlamánná - "schoolchild"
stuorrut - "to grow"
vilddas - "rambunctuous"

Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises

1. Giibat don leat? - Mun lean áhči bárdni.
2. Maid gulat? - Gulan skohtera.
3. Gos don johtet ikte? - Mun johten Ánaris.
4. Ollubat diibmu lea? - Diibmu lea beal gávcci.
5. Leatgo don okto dáppe? - In leat. Mun lean oambealiiguin.
6. Leago dus bargu? - De lea.
7. Dovddatgo don Heaikka? Dovddan dán vehaš.
8. Galle vielja dus leat? - Mus leat guokte vielja.
9. Galle oappá dus leat? - Mus lea okta oabbá.
10. Ledjego dus ikte guossit? - Eai lean. Manne? (Man'ne?)
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Chung
Diglot
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Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 114 of 541
17 March 2012 at 11:43pm | IP Logged 
I have now completed "Davvin 2" and plan to reorganize my accumulated notes. For the next few months at least, I do not plan to continue studying using "Davvin 3" however I'm likely to work on my passive abilities by reading some short texts (e.g. Guldal Garjjá), watching what's available from YLE Areena with Finnish subtitles and possibly do some review using Oahpa! or Davvi Girji's e-books.

I came away with the following impressions after having finished "Davvin 2":

1) Yet again some background in Finnish is very helpful not only because of the inherent "discount" but because of the learning materials that are available that use Finnish as an intermediary language. I used my copy of Sammallahti's Saami <> Finnish dictionary every now and then as I was trying to make sense of the entries for adjectives given how the forms differ when used as attributes or predicates.

2) When it comes to conjugation, I've only been shown the present tense in full after having worked through the first two volumes. That the teaching of the present tense is spread out over two books seems indicative of the authors' pedagogical judgement and the fact that the present tense in Northern Saami is elaborate. Certainly it's nowhere as easy to learn as in almost all of the other languages that I've studied from the noticeably quasi-fusional French to the fusional Polish or the agglutinative Finnish or Hungarian. Only when learning Inari Saami have I dealt with a comparably elaborate system.

On the other hand, my introduction to the simple past and compound past tenses is not complete. I have not yet been taught how to conjugate "contracting" verbs (verbs with two stems) in the simple past tense while I have no clear idea on how to show the negative compound past (although I guess that it's done by negating the auxillary verb and leaving the participle alone).

In addition, my formal understanding of the imperative is limited to the 2nd person singular while I have no idea about the conditional and potential (apart from having glanced at conjugational charts for them in "Davvin 4")

3) When it comes to declension, I've yet to encounter a lesson for declining "contracting" nouns even though I've encountered at least one already, boazu ~ bohcco "reindeer". In addition I have no formal lesson yet for declining stems with an odd number of syllables in comitative plural.

There may be other topics where I feel that I haven't been shown something yet but none of this should be interpreted as a complaint since it seems that the course's authors intended that students finish all of the volumes to get a coherent presentation of Northern Saami.

4) As with "Davvin 1", "Davvin 2" has typos and incosistencies between a few recordings and the text. In addition, independent learners may be slightly annoyed by there being some exercises that require the presence of partners or classmates to function. Nevertheless, I reiterate that it's still worthwhile for anyone wanting a beginners' level introduction to the language to complete at least "Davvin 1" and "Davvin 2".
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5467 days ago

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 Message 115 of 541
22 March 2012 at 5:30am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 10 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The course's dialogue was mainly about Anssi and Jutta shopping for a new coat for Anssi. There were what I took as a clear introduction to the third infinitive (e.g. Mennään syömään hienoon ravintolaan! "Let's go into eating into a nice restaurant!" ~ "Let's go eat at a nice restaurant!") and postpositions beginning with pää- (e.g. Pane takki päälle! "Put a coat to the head!" ~ "Put on a coat!").

***

LATVIAN

I have begun to review Latvian and just completed Chapter 1 of the new edition of "Colloquial Latvian" which has Christopher Moseley and Dace Prauliņš as co-authors. I am a false beginner in the language in having tried to do a crash course in it last summer using "Teach Yourself Latvian". I did not complete the course but wanted a fresh start and felt that using a different course would help keep a "clean slate". Even though "Colloquial Latvian" is new for me, much of the first chapter's material became quickly recognizable as I started to recall what I had studied in "Teach Yourself Latvian". Among other points, the first chapter introduced the present tense, a few cases and greetings.

I had approached "Colloquial Latvian" somewhat warily because of it having been created by the infamous Christopher Moseley whose "Colloquial Estonian" I and shapd have had the displeasure of using thanks to its dubious explanations and frustrating presentation/layout. The new edition of "Colloquial Latvian" however has not seemed as bad and a comparison of its contents with the first edition of the course using Google Books suggests that Prauliņš has revised for the better the older edition/POS from the "expert" hand of Moseley. Certainly the preview on Google Books of Moseley's edition makes me grateful for having chosen this new edition or else I would have probably cursed myself for having been duped by Moseley again after my experience with his wretched "Colloquial Estonian".

Despite the apparent improvement (so far) in the course, I feel that it throws a lot at the user and that a beginner may still become frustrated by it. However when I compare it with my copy of "Teach Yourself Latvian", I find that there's little to choose between the two apart from the audio with the actors on "Teach Yourself Latvian" often speaking more slowly than those on "Colloquial...". On the downside they're both guilty of throwing a lot at users but in their defense they each also have a moderate amount of exercises (in my experience there's more than in Leney's "Teach Yourself Finnish" but less than in Kingisepp's and Kitsnik's "Teach Yourself Estonian" with the latter being arguably the best course in "Teach Yourself"'s series).

***

MISCELLANEA

On the weekend I was searching Youtube for some Hungarian folk music which then evolved into searching for music by the Hungarian folk-electronica group Balkan Fanatik (I've been a fan of Béla Bartók for a long time and his use of folk music from the Carpathian Basin in his compositions is why I'm a fan of such folk music). By chance I then saw a clip of the Finnish folk metal band Korpiklaani. I basically found some good tunes in Finnish, Hungarian and Northern Saami and refined my musical tastes just a bit more.

These are the highlights of what I found:

1) Kunsági, somogyi ill. egyéb népdalok (Folk songs from Kunság and Somogy (regions in Hungary). The first song Jászkunsági gyerek vagyok ("I'm a child of Jászkunság" is particularly well-known and quite rousing. Here are the lyrics but not all of them are sung in the clip.)

http://www.zeneszoveg.hu/dalszoveg/25271/nepdalok/jaszkunsagi-gyerek-vagyok-zeneszoveg.html wrote:
Jászkunsági gyerek vagyok, a Jászkunságon születtem,
Kis koromtól nagy koromig benne fölnevelődtem.

Kilenc zsandár kísér engem a jászkunsági főutcán,
Még akkor is betekintek a kisangyalom ablakán.

Éppen akkor, éppen akkor vetette be az ágyát,
Rozmaringgal, rozmaringgal söpörte a szobáját.

Még akkor is utánam szól: barna legény, gyere be!
Adj egy csókot, egy utolsót kacsintsál a szemembe!

Nem mehetek kedves rózsám, mert be vagyok sorozva,
A budapesti nagy kaszárnya nyitva van a számomra.

Felszántatom, felszántatom, a jászkunsági főutcát,
Vetek bele, vetek bele, piros pünkösdi rózsát.

Ha az a föld, a fekete föld, piros rózsát teremne,
Minden szőke, barna kislány, csak engemet szeretne.


I leave it to hribecek, Kisfroccs or anyone else knowing Hungarian to translate if anyone is curious of the meaning since I'm too lazy right now.

2) Repülj Madár ("Fly, Bird" or Balkan Fanatik's take on the folk song of the same title. Here are Balkan Fanatik's lyrics and the original from the folk song.)

3) Ii lea voibmi ("There's no power" by Shaman. This band is the predecessor of Korpiklaani with the singer and guitarist Jonne Järvelä being the common element. According to this interview Järvelä moved to Sápmi for a few years and learned something about the local culture and presumably at least a little of Northern Saami (his early work was dominated by songs in Northern Saami as I found to my pleasure). There seem to be two errors in the song's title but I leave it to someone else (Kafea?) to point out the errors.

The song's lyrics are:

http://www.lyrics80.com/SHAMAN-IL-LEA-VOIBMI-LYRICS/322175/ wrote:
Ii leat vuoibmi,
ii leat bearraš,
ii leat ruhta.

Don livččet mu vuoibmi,
don livččet mu bearaš,
don livččet mu nieida.


"There's no power,
There's no family,
There's no money.

You would be my power,
You would be my family.
You would be my girl."

4) Ođđa máilbmi (Shaman's "New World" which also has yoiking; very pleasing to my ears)

The song's lyrics are:

http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/parole-groupe-Korpiklaani-nom_album-Odda_Mailbmi-l-en.html wrote:
Hei jo lo le...

Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit

Hei jo lo le...

Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit

Mun geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, mun geahča dan ođđasit
Mun geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, mun geahča dan ođđasit

Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit
Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit


Geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, geahča dan ođđasit* "Look at that new world, Look at it again/anew"
Mun geahča dan ođđa máilbmi, mun geahča dan ođđasit* "I look at that new world. I look at it again."

*It seems that are two errors from the lyrics' site since it should be Geahča dan ođđa máilmmi... rather than the nominative singular máilbmi, and Mun geahčan... rather than the imperative 2nd person singular or the present tense's negated stem geahča.

Lastly I've been watching some episodes of the Finnish sitcom Pasila and I've begun to think about the interjection "Damn it!" since one of the main characters in the series often uses "jumalauta!" (God damn it!). Partially out of fun but also out of serious pedagogical need (?), I looked up or thought of the ways to express frustration, disbelief or surprise at a situation in a few of my target languages.

Because I don't want to put an unsuspecting reader in a fight, I refrain from posting the ways to insult someone (for now, at least).

- Frustration (mild to roughly medium)

"Damn (it)!"

Hitto! (Finnish)
A fene! (Hungarian)
Cholera! (Polish)
Neavri! (Northern Saami)
Dočerta! (Slovak)

There are other terms with similar levels of vulgarity and intensity in these languages but to keep it simple I'm listing only one expression per language. Each of these can be at least somewhat impolite so any outsider wanting to use any of them should pick his/her spots to do so.

Another set of interjections for frustration for most of these languages will come in the next entry.

Edited by Chung on 22 March 2012 at 7:11pm

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hribecek
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
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Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish
Studies: Italian, Polish, Slovak, Hungarian, Toki Pona, Russian

 
 Message 116 of 541
22 March 2012 at 9:25am | IP Logged 
Nice phrases. I didn't know the Hungarian one, so that's useful for me.

Obviously I understand the Slovak one and have heard it but can't remember if I've heard a Slovak say 'sakra'. This is very common in Czech to mean 'damn (it)'.
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Kafea
Groupie
United States
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 Message 117 of 541
22 March 2012 at 10:38am | IP Logged 
That is very interesting about Korpiklaani. I wondered why they call themselves Shaman because that is not a Sámi word, and noaidi are not shaman. They can be a wise person, a healer, one knowledgeable with plants or place-names, or with contact to distant places or other existence. But there are other words for the ones that dabble in the bad, and they are definitely not publicized, never done for show or public knowledge. I thought a group like that should know better but now I understand a bit why they call themselves Korpiklaani Shaman if they aren't even Sámi but are a New-Agey stage show.   

I wouldn't even mention it except there was recently an article in the news about a politician who claims to have been harmed by a spell. That is just so offensive. Korpiklaani does the community no favors. My opinion only.
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Chung
Diglot
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 Message 118 of 541
22 March 2012 at 3:45pm | IP Logged 
hribecek wrote:
Nice phrases. I didn't know the Hungarian one, so that's useful for me.

Obviously I understand the Slovak one and have heard it but can't remember if I've heard a Slovak say 'sakra'. This is very common in Czech to mean 'damn (it)'.


I seem to recall one of my Slovak friends using sakra! but it doesn't seem common. According to azet.sk's dictionary, the word seems accepted in Slovak but I have definitely heard it more frequently from my Czech friends.
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Chung
Diglot
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Joined 5467 days ago

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 Message 119 of 541
22 March 2012 at 5:30pm | IP Logged 
Kafea wrote:
That is very interesting about Korpiklaani. I wondered why they call themselves Shaman because that is not a Sámi word, and noaidi are not shaman. They can be a wise person, a healer, one knowledgeable with plants or place-names, or with contact to distant places or other existence. But there are other words for the ones that dabble in the bad, and they are definitely not publicized, never done for show or public knowledge. I thought a group like that should know better but now I understand a bit why they call themselves Korpiklaani Shaman if they aren't even Sámi but are a New-Agey stage show.   

I wouldn't even mention it except there was recently an article in the news about a politician who claims to have been harmed by a spell. That is just so offensive. Korpiklaani does the community no favors. My opinion only.


After I had first come across Shaman/Korpiklaani's songs in Northern Saami, I was then surprised to find out that the frontman is Jonne Järvelä - a decidedly Finnish man. Your comments about the band seem to make me think of the comments that I saw on Youtube for the band's songs which gave the impression that Shaman's songs were better than Korpiklaani's. However I could attribute this to a case where a band's or musician's later output makes a weaker impression than earlier output as the novelty fades (it also makes me think about people who talk about something "classic" by a band or musician).

Regardless of Shaman's/Korpiklaani's presentation of Saamic culture, I was happy to make another musical discovery and hear more songs in Northern Saami (perhaps unfortunately, I've not warmed up to Intrigue's style of heavyjoik, even though it's genuinely Saamic).
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Chung
Diglot
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Joined 5467 days ago

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Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 120 of 541
26 March 2012 at 7:01am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 11 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The course's dialogue was about Anna trying to cheer Jutta up and offer suggestions to get Jutta physically active. There was some focus on using the third infinitive and an introduction to the conditional present.

***

LATVIAN

I have just completed Chapter 2 of the new edition of "Colloquial Latvian" and got introduced to the accusative, numbers and basic phrases for giving directions. It went rather quickly again because I am a false beginner and as I was doing the exercises I began recalling material that I had encountered in "Teach Yourself Latvian" last year.

***

POLISH

I'm finally studying some Polish again as opposed to just reading the odd text or speaking it infrequently when I manage to meet Polish friends. It feels good, man. As I had stated earlier, my plan was to use "Reading Authentic Polish" and DLI's Polish Refresher Course to build my passive ability since I felt that on my latest trip to Poland too many things were going over my head. "Reading Authentic Polish" has 50 units from beginning to advanced and I just finished the first unit. So far I like it since I get some structure when working on reading comprehension of Polish from short newspaper articles, signs, tickets or other utilitarian settings instead of reading comprehension of literary excerpts (I've never got into literature of any language that much). However I can't talk as positively about the DLI's Refresher Course. The exercises are quite demanding (the transcription exercises in particalr) and the course is still meant for translators/interpreters at DLI who've picked up the military jargon in addition to having gone through other courses in Polish at DLI. I'll give this course's second unit a go but may drop it if I will still not be getting as much out of it as I would like. I also considered using DLI's Proficiency Course in Polish but it seemed even less suitable for my needs since it was quite heavily focused on military and geopolitical topics. It reminded me somewhat of a beefed-up counterpart in Polish of the Selkouutiset in simplified Finnish. The latter is gentler on learners and carries topics in the news of broader interest than the former.

I'm starting to think that I'll also work through "Kiedyś wrócisz tu..." since I would like some structure for working on material meant for B2 and/or C1. In addition I've had some success with the series having already finished "Cześć, jak się masz" and "Z polskim na ty".

***

MISCELLANEA

As mentioned in the last entry, here's another set of expressions for frustration basically corresponding to "Crap!" In some instances they can be used in the same situations as the interjection "Damn (it)!" shown in the last post.

- Frustration with tinge of annoyance or resignation (mild to roughly medium)

"Crap!"

Paska! (Finnish)
Kurde! (Polish)
Do frasa! (Slovak - actually very similar strength and sense to Do čerta! in the previous post)

[Fasz kivan! (Hungarian - this is a bit stronger than "crap!" and is pretty much as vulgar as "$hi†!")]

(Un)fortunately I don't know what the expletive here is in Northern Saami. If I had to express my annoyance in it, I'd go with what I know and just use Neavri! as shown before or maybe Danheakka!.

All of these can be at least somewhat impolite. Any outsider wanting to use any of them should pick his/her spots to do so.

A set of interjections for disbelief for most of these languages will come in the next entry.

P.S. When looking into Hungarian interjections, there seems to be rather little middle ground as one uses either fairly mild terms or the "normal ones" which are highly vulgar (lots of stuff involving kurva ('whore'; figuratively 'bitch') or baszni and its derivatives involving 'to fu¢k'). The fact that I can't recall or find a Hungarian term corresponding to the moderately vulgar "Crap!" supports this. Polish and Slovak seem to me to be slightly more graded with more interjections between the mild ones and the highly vulgar ones. In comparison, English seems still more balanced on the spectrum from mild to strong, but it seems to fall behind these target languages when it comes to the strong, colorful and highly vulgar stuff.


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