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Serpent
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serpent-849.livejour
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 Message 449 of 541
20 May 2014 at 4:19pm | IP Logged 
вихідні на Шацьких refers to the Shatsky lakes.
Yay I guessed correctly that садок вишневий коло хаты is from a poem. I even guessed that it's Taras Shevchenko, hehe :) if you allow me to keep guessing, I assume it's not literally about cherry gardens but just the regions being mostly rural.
та, що на столі means "the one on the table" or "as in, on the table". Хортиця appears to be an island on Dnepr and a brand of vodka/horylka.
And seems like Ivasyuk was a poet/composer.
Also, повышение in this context doesn't mean high-end but promotion (at work).
I would translate the ярмарка label as "the [country] fair", meaning that they're probably known for some specific event.

Impressive work anyway!



rahdonit
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 Message 450 of 541
20 May 2014 at 11:23pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:

***

UKRAINIAN

I’ve finished the exercises on p. 160-3 (Chapter 9) of “Beginner’s Ukrainian” which focus on the dative singular of nouns and adjectives. This isn’t new material but it never hurts to do some review.

For the usual comic, I’ll be instead showing in sequence maps of Ukraine that are modelled on the Yanko Tsvetov’s work in “Mapping Stereotypes”. I welcome feedback or comments from the Ukrainian posters since they may be able to clarify further the subtext of the stereotypes many of which I’m admittedly rather clueless about.



(From Карти України очима її жителів




мадяри “Hungarians” (refers to Transcarpathia as being part of the Hungarian Kingdom and the home of Ukraine’s Hungarian minority since its annexation by the USSR / Ukrainian SSR from Czechoslovakia via Stalinist chicancery at the end of WWII)
agree

- Україна “Ukraine” (refers to Lviv Oblast being dominated by Ukrainian nationalists and that this area represents the genuine Ukraine)
agree

- гутцули “Hutsuls” (refers to Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast being populated by Hutsuls who are part of the Rusyns and in turn are either part of the Ukrainian ethnos or form a distinct ethnicity outright).
agree

- вихідні на Шацьких “Day off at Shats’kykh” (I do not understand the reference for Volyn Oblast)
Шацькі озера (Lakes of Shatsk) – a popular recreation center in Volyn, thus “A week-end at Lakes of Shatsk”

- тьотя Свєта “Auntie Svyeta” (I do not understand the reference for Ternopil Oblast)
I did not understand the reference either, but google knows everything “Тернопільщину назвали “тьотьою Свєтою”. Це асоціює родинні стосунки, адже багато львів’ян мають родичів на сусідній Тернопільщині.” Ternopil oblast was called “Auntie Svyeta”. This evokes family relations as many inhabitants of Lviv oblast have relatives in the neighbouring Ternopil region.

- Івасюк “Johnny” (I do not understand the reference for Chernivtsi Oblast)
A reference to a very popular songwriter and composer Volodymyr Ivasyuk who was born in Chernivtsi region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivasyuk
Probably his most popular song is Червона рута, but also many other songs are well-known and loved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV_4XvldJw0

- файні кобіти “Great women” (non-standard and lifted from Polish cf. fajnie kobiety - I guess that the ladies from Rivne Oblast have been stereotyped as such)
I have never heard this stereotype towards the ladies specifically from Rivne Oblast, although I am sure Rivne has its share of fajnie kobiety

- Западная Украина “Western Ukraine” [Russian] (this seems to represent an external view (not just that of Russians or Russian-speaking Ukrainians) about the country when reducing the divide between “West” and “East” both geographically and culturally)
The clue is probably in the fact that the inscription is in Russian, thus suggesting that for Russians or for Ukrainians from the East “Western Ukraine” begins in Vinnytsya, Zhytomyr and Khmelnytskyy. Normally Ukrainians perceive these regions as being a part of “Central Ukraine”

- Одесса-мама “Mother Odessa” [Russian] (refers to Odessa being a cherished city among Russians)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3FlIvIb_tc


- Повышение ~ “high-end” [Russian] (refers to the prestige and importance of Kyiv Oblast - and probably the universal tension between the inhabitants in the capital and those outside it)
Повышение – “promotion”, when bureaucrats get promoted, they end up in the capital, in Kiev

- помідорчики на дачі “little tomatoes at the cottage” (I guess that people in Chernihiv Oblast grow a lot of tomatoes)
Chernihiv is so close to Kiev that the inhabitans of the capital have their summer cottages there. (Usually your dacha is not far from your home)

- Садок вишневый коло хаты “a garden of cherry trees around the house” [(?) Surzhyk - mixed Ukrainian-Russian] (I guess that Cherkasy and Kirovohrad Oblasts are known for houses surrounded by cherry orchards)
This is not Surzhyk, it is pure Ukrainian written with Russian letters (I have no idea why). It is the first line of a poem by Taras Shevchenko, who was born in Cherkassy Oblast

- по дороге на... “on the way to...” [Russian] (I guess that Mykolaiv Oblast draws such a blank that people pass by without giving it another look)
По дороге на Крым – “on the way to the Crimea”. The Crimea used to be a popular summer destination for many Ukrainians (4 mln each year) and to get there from Kiev (and many other regions of Ukraine) one had to pass Mykolaiv Oblast

- кетчуп “ketchup” (I guess that Kherson Oblast is known for manufacturing ketchup)
agree

- комуняки “commies” (refers to Crimea’s Russian majority long-standing and strong identification with the Kremlin’s control)
agree

- Хортиця (та, що на столі) “female greyhound (and what’s on the table)” (I do not understand the reference for Zaporizhia Oblast)
Khortytsya – 1) an island on the Dnieper in Zaporizhia, famous for being one of the sites where Zaporizhian Sich was located 2) a famous Vodka brand
Khortytsya (the one that is on the table) = a Vodka brand and not the island

- Тимошенко “Tymoshenko” (Yulia Tymoshenko was born in Dnipropetrovsk, capital of the oblast of the same name)
agree

- ярмарка “country fair” [Russian] (I guess that Poltava Oblast is known for its country fairs)
A reference to Sorochyntsi Fair that was described in “The Fair at Sorochyntsi” by Gogol.

- електричка до Конотопа “streetcar for Konotop” (the town of Konotop in Sumy Oblast is known for its streetcar network despite its size (pop. 90,000))
This is interesting to know that Konotop is the smallest town in Ukraine that has a streetcar network. But I think the reference is made to Konotop being an important railway transportation. Also “електричка” can mean only “electrical multiple unit”, a streetcar is “трамвай”

- по дороге на Москву “On the way to Moscow” [Russian] (this refers to the physical proximity to Russia of Kharkiv Oblast not to mention the Russophilia in some of its inhabitants)
agree

- Донбасс “Donbass” [Russian] (this refers to the emerging rust belt in the Donets Basin of Donetsk Oblast)
agree

- бедный сосед сбоку “poor neighbour on its side” [Russian] (I guess that this refers to poverty in Luhansk Oblast)
Probably Luhansk Oblast is poorer than Donetsk



Edited by rahdonit on 20 May 2014 at 11:31pm

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Chung
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 Message 451 of 541
21 May 2014 at 4:21pm | IP Logged 
Дуже дякую, Серпент і рагдоніт!
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
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 Message 452 of 541
14 June 2014 at 8:00pm | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I’ve be doing a lot of L-R with the dialogues in "Colloquial Finnish" (despite my criticism of the rest of the course). As I prepare to go on holiday very soon. I've found myself pressed for free time as I set up accommodation and make plans with friends and so my language studies have been constrained. For the trip itself, I'll be bringing "Colloquial Finnish" and transcripts of the dialogues from Korvat auki to go with the audio on my .mp3 player. Browsing through the material while waiting at train stations or riding the plane can't hurt.



(From Kiroileva siili)

1) “How can you live here? - How do you mean?”
2) “Well, you always gotta watch out and be afraid of every little thing!! - Like what?”
3) “Well, diseases, and murderers, and... - YOU are scaring me.”

- murhaaja (murhaajan, murhaajaa, murhaajia) “murderer”
- tauti (taudin, tautia, tauteja) “disease”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

KOREAN

My effort here has been feeling the pinch as I prepare to go on holiday but I've continued to work on getting familiar with Hangul - lots of drill sheets and I've even made up my own modelled on what I've found. For formal courses, I'm thinking of switching to “Korean From Zero” as my primary course which I mentioned here since I find the Romanization used in the first few chapters of “Spoken World Korean” and the free course “My Korean 1” to be hindering my effort to get comfortable with Hangul. “Korean from Zero” however dispenses with Romanization after the introductory chapter which is focused on Hangul in isolation.

***

TURKISH

I worked through Unit 23 of “Turkish Self-Study Course” which had as its main points in grammar more polite forms of the imperative (i.e. suffixes for the 3rd persons and 2nd person plural) and a few phrases for courtesy (e.g. buyurun “please, here you go” cf. Czech & Slovak prosím!, German bitte!) I also continued working in Unit 6 of “Elementary Turkish” (pgs. 118-23) where I was introduced to the derivational suffix -ci etc. used to denote professions (e.g. spor “sport” ~ sporcu “athlete, sports(wo)man”). The exercises in this section were a mix of reading and listening comprehension and a few substitution drills.

Even though I’m not as prepared linguistically for my upcoming trip to Turkey as I had hoped, I’ll just have to make the best of it. I’ll probably bring along at least one of the textbooks from “Turkish Self-Study Course” and associated audio to while away some downtime (or in a geeky way even provide a small conversation piece with my Turkish hosts).

***

UKRAINIAN

I’ve finished the remaining exercises in Chapter 9 (p. 164-72) of “Beginner’s Ukrainian” which were a mix of drills related to telling the time and exercises tied to some notes on Ukrainian cuisine. Unfortunately my motivation to go hard on Ukrainian has dropped a bit lately partially because of my upcoming holiday but also because I’ve had a falling out with a few Ukrainian friends. The good vibes that I’ve had when studying it aren’t as strong but I hope that it will recover since I hate losing touch with friends and seeing my effort acquire a negative association overall.

For the usual comic, here’s another map of Ukraine that us modelled on Yanko Tsvetov’s work in “Mapping Stereotypes”. I welcome feedback or comments from the Ukrainian posters since they may be able to clarify further the subtext of the stereotypes many of which I’m admittedly rather clueless about.



(From Карти України очима її жителів

Map of Ukraine in the eyes of Transcarpathians* (generally from left to right)

*People who live the Transcarpathian Oblast in far western Ukraine along the border with Slovakia, Hungary and Romania. This probably also refers to Rusyns who are closely associated with the oblast and depending on one’s point of view are either a sub-group of Ukrainians or a distinct Slavonic ethnicity.

- файта “sort, type; group of friends” [Rusyn] (a local term cf. the animated series “Наша Файта” which is about life in the oblast)
- поляки “Poles” (the Oblasts of Lviv, Volyn and Rivne are viewed as being full of Poles partially because of those territories having been part of Poland in the past and still populated by Ukrainians with Polish heritage or Poles outright)
- дача Ющенка “Yushchenko’s cottage” (I guess that President Yushchenko has a cottage in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast).
- Україна “Ukraine” (the Oblasts of Ternopil', Khmelnytskyi, Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia are considered to form Ukraine)
- стройка “tower crane” (refers to the construction and tall buildings in Kyiv)
- Шевченко “Shevchenko” (Taras Shevchenko was born in a village in Cherkasy Oblast)
- Фіг зна шо “God knows what” (?) (I’m guessing that this refers how Transcarpathian draw a blank when trying to think about several oblasts in southern Ukraine)
- коньяк “cognac” (I guess that Transcarpathians associate Odessa with cognac)
- раз в жизні на море “(being) at the sea once in a lifetime” (refers to Crimea being the place where Transcarpatians can most easily spend time on a seashore.)
- тут тече Дніпро “here flows the Dnipro” (the only noteworthy piece of information about Dnipropetrovsk and Zaporizhia Oblasts for a Transcarpathian is that the Dnipro River runs through them)
- вареники “varenyky” (Poltava Oblast is known for its varenyky (pierogi))
- руські “Russkies” (the proximity of Chernihiv, Sumy, and Kharkiv Oblasts to Russia has something do with this one. The standard Ukrainian term for a Russian is росіянин.)
- Донбас-арена “Donbas Arena.” (Donetsk Oblast is notable for a large stadium in Donetsk)
- шахти “(mining) shafts, pits” (Luhansk Oblast as some of us Westerners now know thanks to the media these days has been long known among Ukrainians for its mines and heavy industry)

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

MISCELLANEOUS

N/A

______


1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
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 Message 453 of 541
14 June 2014 at 8:06pm | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From Jožinko via SME.sk)

1) “Hey! Look at what I can do!”
2) “Is that all? Look at what I can do!”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 10

Dialog 3 / Dialóg 3

I: Kde jsou Pavel a Michal?

I: Kde sú Pavol a Michal?

“Where are Pavel / Pavol and Michal?”

Cz: Pavel | Sk: Pavol “Paul”

Czech and Slovak render “Paul” differently, small as the differences are phonologically and orthographically.


Z: Šli ven

Z: Išli von.

“They went out.”


I: Řekněte mi, jsou tihle dva vlastně Češi nebo Slováci? Vypadají skoro jako bratři a oba spolu mluví občas slovensky.

I: Povedzte, sú títo dvaja Slováci alebo Česi? Vyzerajú ako bratia, ale Michal hovorí skôr ako Čech.

“Tell me, are those two actually Czechs or Slovaks? They look almost like brothers and both speak to each other in Slovak sometimes. / They look like brothers but Michal speaks rather like a Czech.

Cz: řekněte ~ říct | Sk: povedzte ~ povedať “tell! ~ to say” [imperative, 2nd person plural]

The formation of the imperative in Czech and Slovak takes the same starting point by using a stem based on the 3rd person plural in present tense (imperfective aspect) or future tense (perfective aspect). However the results can differ because of sound changes that occur in one language but not in the other even though the imperative endings themselves are sometimes identical.

2nd person singular (used to order someone in an informal or even rude way)

“drink!, give! take! travel!, write!”
Cz: vrať se! (< vrátí se!), pij! (< pijí), , dej! (< dají), vezmi si! (< vezmou si), cestuj! (< cestujou), napiš! (< napíšou)
Sk: vráť sa! (< vrátia sa), pi! (< pijú), daj! (< dajú). vezmi si! (< vezmú si), cestuj! (< cestujú), napíš! (< napíšu)

1st person plural

“let’s come back!, let’s drink, let’s give!, let’s take!, let’s travel!, let’s write!”

Cz: vraťme se!, pijme!, dejme!, vezměme si!, cestujme!, napišme!
Sk: vráťme sa!, pime!, dajme!, vezmime si!, cestujme!, napíšme!

2nd person plural (used to order more than one person, or to order someone in a formal or polite way)

“come back!, drink!, give!, take!, travel! write!”

Cz: vraťte se!, pijte!, dejte!, vezměte si!, cestujte!, napište!
Sk: vráťte sa!, pime!, dajte!, vezmite si!, cestujte!, napíšte!

The salient differences from the above are:

a) For Czech verbs whose stem has a long vowel in last syllable, this syllable becomes short in imperative. Slovak counterparts retain the length in imperative (cf. vrátí se ~ vrať se! and napíšou ~ napiš! vs. vrátia sa ~ vráť sa! and napíšu ~ napíš!)

b) Czech imperatives derived from a stem that uses -ijí or -yjí in 3rd person plural retain -j-. The Slovak counterparts derive from a stem that ends in -ijú or -yjú respectively but the -j- is dropped in the imperative (cf. pijí ~ pij! vs. pijú ~ pi!)

c) The Czech imperative of verbs whose conjugational stem uses -a- or -á- shows -e- or -ě- instead whereas in Slovak these verbs do not go through this change. (cf. dají ~ dej! vs. dajú ~ daj!)

d) For verbs whose stem ends in two consonants, the linking vowel in the plural forms in Czech is -e- or -ě- whereas in Slovak it is -i-. (cf. vezmou si ~ vezměte si! vs. vezmú si ~ vezmite si!)

Differences also occur in forming the imperative of “irregular verbs” of these languages:

E.g.

“to answer ~ answer! [singular informal], let’s answer!, answer! [plural or singular formal]”
Cz: odpovědět ~ odpověz!, odpovežme!, odpovězte!
Sk: odpovedať ~ odpovedz!, odpovedzme!, odpovedzte!

“to eat ~ eat! [singular informal], let’s eat!, eat! [plural or singular formal]”
Cz: jíst ~ jez!, jezme!, jezte!
Sk: jesť ~ jedz!, jedzme!, jedzte!

“to go ~ go! [singular informal], let’s go!, go! [plural or singular formal]”
Cz: jít ~ jdi!, jděme!*, jděte!
Sk: ísť ~ choď! / iď!, iďme! / choďme! iďte! / choďte!**

* This is often replaced by pojďme! (see under “to come”)
** The imperative of ísť is often expressed by the pattern from chodiť “to go, walk”

“to come ~ come! [singular informal], let’s come!, come! [plural or singular formal]”
Cz: přijít ~ pojď! / přijdi!, pojďme! / přijděme!, pojďte! / přijděte!***
Sk: prísť ~ poď! / príď!, poďme! / príďme!, poďte! / príďte!****

*** The frequent way to translate “come!” is to use the imperative derived from a stem based on the perfective forms of jít “to go” (i.e. jít ~ jdu “to go ~ I am going” ~ půjdu “I will go”).

**** The frequent way to translate “come!” is to use the imperative derived from a stem based on the perfective forms of ísť “to go” (i.e. ísť ~ idem “to go ~ I am going” ~ pôjdem “I will go”).

Cz: tihle | Sk: títo “these, those” (emphasized form)

As with the singular forms of the demonstrative pronouns, each language shows different declensional patterns in their plural forms.

“these, those” (masculine) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: ty / ti, ty, těch, těm, těch, těmi
Sk: tie / tí, tie / tých, tých, tým, tých, tými

“these, those” (feminine) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: ty, ty, těch, těm, těch, těmi
Sk: tie, tie, tých, tým, tých, tými

“these, those” (neuter) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: ta, ta, těch, těm, těch, těmi
Sk: tie, tie, tých, tým, tých, tými

Note how the Slovak patterns for masculine inanimate, feminine and neuter are identical while the Czech neuter form in nominative and accusative (i.e. ta is distinct from the feminine and masculine inanimate form in those cases (i.e. ty). In addition, the accusative, genitive and locative for the masculine animate are merged in Slovak (i.e. tých, tých, tých) while Czech’s masculine animate ti in accusative (i.e ty) is not merged with genitive and locative (i.e. těch, těch.

See here for comparison of the demonstrative pronouns in singular and -hle versus -to.

Cz: dva | Sk: dvaja “two” (masculine animate)

Slovak (and Polish) stand out from the other Slavonic languages in obligatory use of distinct numerals for quantifying 2, 3 or 4 masculine animate subjects in nominative with these forms in Slovak being dvaja, traja and štyria respectively. Other Slavonic languages resemble Polish and Slovak somewhat on this point but differ in recycling existing forms (e.g. Russian could use collective numerals in this situation; Czech uses the same forms of the numerals in masculine regardless of animacy), the forms being optional and/or encompassing any quantity over 1 (e.g. using the functionally similar forms in двама / петима ученици “two / five (male) pupils” in Bulgarian coexists with using the “regular” forms два / пет ученици meaning the same).

“two” (masculine) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: dva, dva, dvou, dvěma, dvou, dvěma
Sk: dva / dvaja, dva / dvoch, dvoch, dvom, dvoch, dvoma

“two” (feminine, neuter) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: dvě, dvě, dvou, dvěma, dvou, dvěma
Sk: dve, dve, dvoch, dvom, dvoch, dvoma

“three” (masculine) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: tři, tři, tři, třem, třech, třemi
Sk: tri / traja, tri / troch, troch, trom, troch, tromi

“three” (feminine, neuter) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: tři, tři, tři, třem, třech, třemi
Sk: tri, tri, troch, trom, troch, tromi

“four” (masculine) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: čtyři, čtyři, čtyř, čtyřem, čtyřech, čtyřmi
Sk: štyri / štyria, štyri / štyroch, štyroch, štyrom, štyroch, štyrmi

“four” (feminine, neuter) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: čtyři, čtyři, čtyř, čtyřem, čtyřech, čtyřmi
Sk: štyri, štyri, štyroch, štyrom, štyroch, štyrmi

Cz: Češi | Sk: Česi “Czechs”

This difference is an example of how the final -i changes the preceding -ch- or -x-. Among linguists this is called the Slavonic third palatalization with Czech regularly showing the change of -ch- to -š- while Slovak regularly showing a change of -ch- to -s-. Incidentally this pattern in Slovak resembles the one found in Southern Slavonic languages and contributes to the reputation of Slovak being a hybrid Slavonic language with certain elements typical of Eastern or Southern Slavonic languages overlayed on its recognizably Western Slavonic base.

Cz: vypadat | Sk: vyzerať “to appear, look, seem”

Each word is nowadays unique to its own language in these meanings. However, the descriptive dictionary of Slovak lists vypadať as a Czechism as well as an outdated literary alternative to vyzerať. In modern Slovak, vypadať means “to fall out gradually or step-by-step”. Vyzerať is a compound whose second element is related to the poetic zrieť “to see; look for”. As noted here in the discussion on pozerať, this is cognate with literary Czech zřít “to see” but vyzírat “to appear, look, seem” (i.e. the Czech analogue to Slovak vyzerať) is literary and even then it occurs rarely.

Cz: bratři | Sk: bratia “brothers”

This pair shows another grammatical difference between Czech and Slovak with each language showing here different outcomes when indicating the nominative plural for masculine animate nouns.

The usual ending of nominative plural for masculine animate nouns is -i for both languages however there are also other endings which will be covered shortly. In Czech and to a somewhat lesser degree in Slovak, about half a dozen consonants regularly change when followed immediately by -i. The preceding example of Češi vs. Česi is an example of this change with the nominative singular Čech “Czech (man)” common to both languages showing the shift of -ch in nominative singular to in Czech and -s in Slovak in nominative plural.

E.g.

Cz: studenti (< student) | Sk: študenti (< študent) “students” [male only or for a group of male and female students] (even though neither language marks it explicitly in spelling with the designated grapheme ť representing a palatalized t, the final -t is indeed palatalized because of the -i of the plural)
Cz: žáci (< žák) | Sk: žiaci (< žiak) “schoolboys, pupils” (i.e. -k > -c)
Cz: Maďaři (< Maďar) | Sk: Maďari (< Maďar) “Hungarians” [men only or for a group of Hungarian men and women] (final -r in Czech changes to but in Slovak there's no such change).


However the listed example of bratři vs. bratia shows that these languages can also differ by the endings assigned even in cognates or the same word.

E.g.

- Cz: bohové (< bůh) | Sk: bohovia (< boh) “god” (Czech uses -ové while Slovak uses -ovia)
- Cz: bratři (< bratr) | Sk: bratia (< brat) “brothers” (-i ending changes final -r in Czech but Slovak uses suffix -ia instead of “regular” -i)
- Cz: Írové (< Ír) | Sk: Íri / Írovia (< Ír) “Irishmen” (Czech plural has -ové while Slovak allows for two choices ending either in -i or -ovia)
- Cz: Slované / Slovani (< Slovan) | Sk: Slovania (< Slovan) “Slavs” [men only or for a group of male and female Slavs] (Czech allows for two choices ending either in or -i while Slovak uses -ia instead)
- Cz: synové (< syn) | Sk: synovia (< syn) (Czech plural has -ové while Slovak form has -ovia)
- Cz: učitelé (< učitel) | Sk: učitelia (< učiteľ) “teachers” [men only or for a group of male and female teachers] (Czech uses ending while Slovak uses -ia)
- Cz: vrahové / vrazi (< vrah) | Sk: vrahovia (< vrah) “murderers” [male only or for a group of male and female murderers] (Czech allows for two choices ending either in -i (with attendant change of -h to -z) or -ové while Slovak uses -ovia instead)


Z: Nejsou bratři. Jejich otcové jsou přátelé a staří kolegové. Pavel je Čech, ale narodil se v Bratislavě. Mluví taky dobře maďarsky, protože jeho matka je Maďarka. Michal má sice slovenské rodiče, ale narodil se v Praze. Bydleli taky dost dlouho v Polsku a později jeho rodiče pracovali čtyři roky na velvyslanectví v Londýně. Tehdy byli diplomati a teď jsou z nich bohatí podnikatelé.

Z: Vôbec nie sú bratia. Ich otcovia sú priatelia a starí kolegovia. Pavol je Slovák, narodil sa v Nitre. Hovorí dobre aj po maďarsky, lebo jeho matka je Maďarka. Michal má síce slovenských rodičov, ale narodil sa v Prahe. Bývali tam dosť dlho, a potom jeho rodičia pracovali štyri roky na veľvyslanectve v Londýne. Vtedy pracovali ako diplomati a teraz sú z nich bohatí podnikatelia.


- “They aren’t brothers. Their fathers are friends and old colleagues. Pavel is a Czech but he was born in Bratislava. He also speaks Hungarian well because his mother is a Hungarian. Michal however has Slovak parents but he was born in Prague. They also lived for a long time in Poland but later his parents worked for four years at the embassy in London. At that time they were diplomats but now they’ve become wealthy entrepreneurs.”
- “They aren’t brothers at all. Their fathers are friends and old colleagues. Pavol is a Slovak but he was born in Nitra. He also speaks Hungarian well because his mother is a Hungarian. Michal however has Slovak parents but he was born in Prague. They lived there for quite a long time and then his parents worked for four years at the embassy in London. At that time they worked as diplomats but now they’ve become wealthy entrepreneurs.”

Cz: jejich | Sk: ich “their”

Different possessive pronouns/adjectives here, although both are equally indeclinable.

E.g.

“I like their new friends but their old friends were very kind.”
Cz: Mám rád jejich nové kamarády, ale jejich starí kamarádi byli velmi milí.
Sk: Mám rád ich nových kamarátov, ale ich starí kamaráti boli veľmi milí..

Cz: otcové, přátelé, kolegové | Sk: otcovia, priatelia, kolegovia “fathers, friends, colleagues”

See preceding examples under bratři versus bratia for more discussion on nominative plural of masculine animate nouns in Czech and Slovak.

Cz: staří | Sk: starí “old” (nominative plural, masculine animate)

On a related note to the earlier discussion about the effects of -i on preceding consonants in ouns, -i or for marking the nominative plural in Czech and Slovak can set off somewhat similar changes in adjectives. Here starý “old” takes on in nominative plural when modifying masculine animate nouns with the predictable change of -r- to -ř- in Czech. However the set of changes engendered by is not the same in each of Czech and Slovak.

E.g.

“My close English and Slovak friends are young and wise.”
Cz: Moji blízcí angličtí a slovenští kamarádi jsou mladí a moudří.
Sk: Moji blízki anglickí a slovenskí kamaráti sú mladí a múdri.

The plural ending regularly changes the preceding consonant in Czech adjectives that end in -ký (e.g. blízký “close”), -cký (e.g. anglický), -ský (e.g. slovenský) and -rý (e.g. moudrý) in nominative singular. Slovak shows no such changes with these endings. Moreover the masculine animate ending for adjectives in nominative plural is -i or per the Slovak rhythmic law (See here for information about this law). However in both languages d, n or t are become palatalized in adjectives that end in / -di, -ní / -ni or -tí / -ti in nominative plural (e.g. mla ~ mla)

Cz: Michal má síce slovenské rodiče... | Sk: Michal má síce slovenských rodičov... “However Michal has Slovak parents...”

This illustrates another grammatical difference between Czech and Slovak. In this pair, the endings for accusative plural of Slovak masculine animate nouns and adjectives have merged with those of the genitive plural. In Czech the accusative plural endings for masculine animate are the same as those of the feminine and masculine inanimate. Put another way, Czech masculine animate nouns are declined in accusative plural as if they were masculine inanimate or feminine nouns.

E.g.

“His sons are rich. Don’t you see his rich sons? The company of his rich sons is famous.” (syn “son” (masculine animate))
Cz: Jeho synové jsou bohatí. (nominative) Nevidíte jeho bohaté syny? (accusative) Firma jeho bohatých synů je slavná. (genitive)
Sk: Jeho synovia sú bohatí. (nominative) Nevidíte jeho bohatých synov? (accusative - same endings as genitive) Firma jeho bohatých synov je slávna. (genitive)

“His daughters are rich. Don’t you see his rich daughters? The company of his rich daughters is famous.” (dcera / dcéra “daughter” (feminine))
Cz: Jeho dcery jsou bohaté. (nominative) Nevidíte jeho bohaté dcery? (accusative) Firma jeho bohatých dcer je slavná. (genitive)
Sk: Jeho dcéry sú bohaté. (nominative) Nevidíte jeho bohaté dcéry? (accusative) Firma jeho bohatých dcér je slávna. (genitive)

Cz: později | Sk: neskôr “later”
Cz: potom | Sk: potom “afterwards, later, then”

The courses’ author decided to use a different adverb for each language although it wouldn’t have been incorrect for the Czech dialogue to use potom instead and thus make the sentence diverge less from the Slovak one.

Cz: rodiče (< rodič) | Sk: rodičia (< rodič) “parents”

The nominative plural forms are different even though the basic form (i.e. nominative singular) is common to both languages. Moreover Czech has the alternative rodičové alongside rodiče. Slovak however has only for rodičia as the nominative plural form. A putative counterpart in *rodičovia for rodičové is spurious.

Cz: na velvyslanectví (< velvyslanectví)| Sk: na velvyslanectve (< velvyslanectvo) “at the embassy”

The derivational suffixes -ctvo and -stvo are common to both languages, however Czech also has derivatives that use the suffix -ctví or -ství instead which are absent in Slovak. Derivatives that have the latter set of endings are declined differently from those ending in the former set of endings as visible by comparing -ství with -stvo. Despite -ctvo and -stvo being common, the full declensional patterns of these suffixes in one language do not match those in the other.

“ministry” (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: ministerstvo, ministerstvo, ministerstva, ministerstvu, ministerstvu, ministerstvem
Sk: ministerstvo, ministerstvo, ministerstva, ministerstvu, ministerstve, ministerstvom

“ministries” (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: ministerstva, ministerstva, ministerstev, ministerstvům, ministerstvech, ministerstvy
Sk: ministerstvá, ministerstvá, ministerstiev, ministerstvám, ministerstvách, ministerstvami

Cz: tehdy | Sk: vtedy “at that time, then”

Each word is codified for its own language.

Cz: podnikatelé (< podnikatel) | Sk: podnikatelia (< podnikateľ) “entrepreneurs”

The difference within this pair in the dialogue also points to a distinct declensional pattern unique to each language

“entrepreneur” (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: podnikatel, podnikatele, podnikatele, podnikateli / podnikatelovi, podnikateli / podnikatelovi, podnikatelem
Sk: podnikateľ, podnikateľa, podnikateľa, podnikateľovi, podnikateľovi, podnikateľom

“entrepreneurs” (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: podnikatelé, podnikatele, podnikatelů, podnikatelům, podnikatelích, podnikateli
Sk: podnikatelia, podnikateľov, podnikateľov, podnikateľom, podnikateľoch, podnikateľmi


I: Proto tedy Michal mluví tak dobře anglicky.

I: Preto teda Michal dobre hovorí po anglicky.

“So that’s why Michal speaks English so well.”

Cz: proto | Sk: preto “why”

See here for tendency of Czech pro- to correspond to Slovak pre- under Cz: prodavačka | Sk: predavačka.


Z: Samozřejmě. Jeho učitelé a profesoři angličtiny si často myslí, že je Angličan. Jeho sestry taky mluví dobře anglicky.

Z: Pravdaže. Aj učitelia a profesori angličtiny si často myslia, že je Angličan. Aj jeho sestry hovoria pekne po anglicky.


- “For sure. His English teachers and professors often think that he is an Englishman. His sisters also speak English well.”
- “For sure. Even his English teachers and professors often think that he is an Englishman. His sisters also speak English beautifully.”

Cz: samozřejmě | Sk: pravdaže “of course, naturally, for sure”

Samozrejme is the Slovak counterpart to Czech samozřejmě. Pravdaže is unique to Slovak.

All other differences have been covered in previous entries.
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Chung
Diglot
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 454 of 541
13 July 2014 at 8:41am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

While I was travelling recently in Finland, I not only completed the exercises “Korvat auki” (I printed out all of the scripts with their exercises, and downloaded the .mp3s), I also filled some lulls in the countryside at a friend's place by doing the exercises in “Colloquial Finnish” starting from Chapter 1 and I managed to work up to Chapter 10 (out of 16). For the most part, working through the latter was review and I was usually comfortable doing the exercises after listening to the dialogues a few times and speed-reading Abondolo's unconventional explanations of the grammar. The point of greatest difficulty for me in my impromptu study was to deal with the passive forms outside the present tense since I don’t use them too often considering that I’ve focused on standard Finnish and have been content with gaining a passive understanding of colloquial Finnish whenever I encounter it. In colloquial Finnish the passive forms are used for the 1st person singular regardless of voice, and they stand out from the sets of forms in standard Finnish for active voice which are formed rather predictably when compared to the conjugated forms of the other subjects. Of the passive forms used to replace active forms in standard conjugation, I’m most at ease when they’re used in the present tense and imperative.

E.g.

“to go”
Standard: mennä
Colloquial: mennä

“I go, he/she goes, we go, they go”
Standard: minä menen, hän menee, me menemme, he menevät
Colloquial: mä meen, se menee, me mennään, ne menee

“I do not go, he/she does not go, we do not go, they do not go”
Standard: minä en mene, hän ei mene, me emme mene, he eivät mene
Colloquial: mä en mene, se ei mene, me ei mennä, ne ei mene

“go! (plural or singular formal), let’s go!, don't go! (plural or singular formal), let’s not go!”
Standard: menkää!, menkäämme!; älkää menkö!, älkäämme menkö!
Colloquial: menkää!, mennään!, älkää menkö!, ei mennä!

It probably has helped that the present tense’s high frequency means that I’ve had ample exposure to its forms in active and passive voices even when the passive forms assume the role marked by active forms in standard language.

Things are trickier for me outside the present tense and imperative because of the lack of familiarity or exposure to the applicable passive forms. I’m more comfortable with using the active forms as codified in the standard even if their use makes my output seem a little stilted. Since I’m a foreigner, I have more slack than the native Finn, and fundamentally they’re just as grammatical as using the applicable passive substitutes found in colloquial register.

“I went, he/she went, we went, they went”;
Standard: minä menin, hän meni, me menimme, he menivät
Colloquial: mä menin, se meni, me mentiin, ne meni

“I did not go, he/she did not go, we did not go, they did not go”
Standard: minä en mennyt, hän ei mennyt, me emme menneet, he eivät meneet
Colloquial: mä en menny(t), se ei menny(t), me ei menty, ne ei menny(t)

“I have gone, he/she has gone, we have gone, they have gone”;
Standard: minä olen mennyt, hän on mennyt, me olemme menneet, he ovat menneet
Colloquial: mä oon menny(t), se on menny(t), me ollaan menty, he on menny(t)

“I have not gone, he/she has not gone, we have not gone, they have not gone”;
Standard: minä en ole mennyt, hän ei ole mennyt, me emme ole menneet, he eivät ole menneet
Colloquial: mä en oo menny(t), se ei oo menny(t), me ei olla menty, ne ei oo menny(t)

“I would go, he/she would go, we would go, they would go”;
Standard: minä menisin, hän menisi, me menisimme, he menisivät
Colloquial: mä menisin, se menisi, me mentäis(iin), ne menisi

“I would not go, he/she would not go, we would not go, they would not go”;
Standard: minä en menisi, hän ei menisi, me emme menisi, he eivät menisi
Colloquial: mä en menis(i), se ei menis(i), me ei mentäis(i), ne ei menis(i)

I've found the juggling between active and passive in colloquial language rather troublesome to retain considering that the standard forms constitute a predictable set that’s also easier to remember.

Now that I'm back from my trip, I've got a little more motivation to continue studying Finnish. One thing that I noticed on the trip was that my stock of passive vocabulary was smaller than I had thought, and that I’m still more comfortable working through structured material with paper and pencil even though I can handle some authentic material. Given that, I intend to start “Finnish for Foreigners 2” which covers grammar that is more typical of written Finnish (including lesser-used infinitives and the passive forms used in passive instead of ways that are not passive at all as found in colloquial language) and work through the texts and exercises in Ymmärrä suomea!. “Korvat auki” was a nice diversion and useful for letting me practice my aural comprehension of colloquial Finnish, but I think that I should work some more on standard Finnish.



(From Viivi ja Wagner 10.7.2014 via Viivi & Wagner - Plaza)

1) “I’ve become abstract!”
2) “I’m just a cluster of lines in different directions.”
3) “[This is] awful! A beer can can’t be held anymore! - [That’s] something good at least.”

- erisuuntainen (erisuuntaisen, erisuuntaista, erisuuntaisia) “in different directions”
- rykelmä (rykelmän, rykelmää, rykelmiä) “cluster”
- tölkki (tölkin, tölkkiä, tölkkejä) “can, tin; carton”
- viiva (viivan, viivaa, viivoja) “lines; bars (e.g. in a barcode)”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

KOREAN

I've decided to use “Korean from Zero 1” and “Spoken World Korean” as my main materials in Korean the time being. As I noted in my previous entry, I was getting increasingly distracted by the Romanization used in “Spoken World Korean” and was attracted to “Korean from Zero 1” because of its lack of Romanization after the introductory chapter on Hangul.

Unfortunately, I find that the audio of “Korean from Zero 1” is a mess for my purposes since it’s divided such that many words or phrases have their own track (!) with the tag information being sparse (the files are distinguishable by number but each tag bears the title “KoreanFromZero - Korean Sound File”. This is hardly enlightening when several hundred tracks are done this way). Chapter 4’s audio is divided into 83 tracks; many of which are just recordings of individual words from the vocabulary list. On the other hand, I’m not that bitter about it since the authors are offering the book and audio as free downloads. On the other hand, “Spoken World Korean” is organized more like say a “Teach Yourself...” or “Colloquial...” course with the language introduced being based on situations. Each chapter consists of a dialogue/narrative, vocabulary list, useful phrases, notes on grammar or culture and a small set of exercises. The accompanying audio broadly follows that layout with that each chapter is divided into 4 or 5 tracks.

As a result, I’ll be studying Korean similarly to how I’m doing it with Turkish by using two courses concurrently regardless of the different rate of progress that I’ll go through by working through them.

I just finished Lesson A in “Korean from Zero 1” which introduces 10 characters and offered practice in writing them individually and in combinations that make up proper words.

***

TURKISH

I worked through Unit 24 of “Turkish Self-Study Course” and finished the exercises in Unit 6 of “Elementary Turkish” (pgs. 124-6). The grammatical focus in both books was the present continuous with the latter book’s exercises letting me practice how to use the tense in both affirmative and negative.

I had a great time in Istanbul last month thanks to my hosts and I really savoured all of the homemade Turkish food and drink in addition to taking in the atmosphere and sights of the city. Prior to going I was expecting to see a drop in my motivation to continue studying Turkish once the trip ended. However I got such a positive impression of Istanbul that I’m already starting to plan my return and revisit my hosts. This means that I’ll gladly keep Turkish in my rotation for at least a while more. For anyone who has not gone, I strongly recommend Istanbul despite the hordes of tourists. Staying with local people let me experience the city and culture beyond the wading through crowds at the Grand Bazaar or dealing with long lines to get into the big-name mosques and palaces.

***

UKRAINIAN

Unfortunately my sentiment toward Ukrainian has not improved since my last entry. In addition to my choice to refocus on Finnish and Korean, and continue with Turkish, the strained relations with my Ukrainian friends have drained some of my motivation to work as hard as I have with Ukrainian. As a result I am scaling back my effort somewhat by working only through “Colloquial Ukrainian” from cover to cover. Although this course is roughly as comprehensive as “Modern Ukrainian” in its coverage of grammar (and more so than “Beginner’s Ukrainian”), it has far fewer exercises. I don’t have the motivation now to plough through as many exercises as I have up to this point when taking on both “Modern Ukrainian” and “Beginner’s Ukrainian”. Once I complete “Colloquial Ukrainian”, I’m not sure what’s next. I certainly don’t feel as enthusiastic now about learning the language to the point of basic fluency (~ B2) as I did even a few months ago. In contrast, my desire to learn Finnish, Polish and Slovak to reach that level is still intact.

In any case, this is rather disappointing since my change in strategy reminds me of how certain friendships have deteriorated. Learning a language is a personal affair and our motivation commonly and ultimately reflects our experiences with native speakers or fellow learners of our target languages.

For the usual comic, I’ll be instead showing in sequence maps of Ukraine that are modelled on Yanko Tsvetkov’s work in “Mapping Stereotypes”. I welcome feedback or comments from the Ukrainian posters since they may be able to clarify further the subtext of the stereotypes many of which I’m admittedly rather clueless about.



(From Карти України очима її жителів)

Map of Ukraine in the eyes of citizens from Lviv* (generally from left to right)

*People who live in a large city in western Ukraine which is traditionally associated with Ukrainian nationalism and perhaps ironically a more western (i.e. neither Ukrainian nor Russian) orientation because of being under Polish and later Austro-Hungarian control

- Україна “Ukraine” (tied to the sentiment that only Lviv oblast represents best the idea that Ukraine and Ukrainians are distinct from Russia and Russians and the stereotype (especially held by eastern Ukrainians or even Russians) that the oblast is crawling with Ukrainian chauvinists)
- мадяри “Magyars” (lesser-used synonym for “Hungarians”) (Transcarpthia was part of the Hungarian Kingdom for about a 1000 years and has been the home of Ukraine’s Hungarian minority since its annexation to the USSR / Ukrainian SSR from Czechoslovakia via Stalinist chicanery at the end of WWII)
- гутцули “Hutsuls” (refers to Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast being populated by Hutsuls who are part of the Rusyns and in turn are either part of the Ukrainian ethnos or form a distinct ethnicity outright)
- вихідні на Шацьких “Day off at Shatsk Lakes” (the Lakes of Shatsk are a popular recreation center in Volyn Oblast)
- тьотя Свєта “Auntie Svyeta” (Many people in Lviv Oblast have relatives in Ternopil Oblast).
- Івасюк “Ivasyuk” (the popular songwriter and composer Volodymyr Ivasyuk was born in Chernivtsi Oblast)
- файні кобіти “Great women” (non-standard and lifted from Polish cf. fajnie kobiety - I guess that the ladies from Rivne Oblast have been stereotyped as such)
- на базар за мештами “(Let’s go) to the bazaar for slippers” (?) (I don’t understand this reference for Khmelnytskyi Oblast)
- Київ через Бердичів “Kyiv via Berdychiv” (I don’t understand this reference for Zhytomyr Oblast unless it’s merely referring to the fact that the town of Berdychiv is due west of Kyiv and that anyone wishing to drive to Kyiv from Lviv would need to go through Berdychiv)
- купим в Жмеринці тараньку “We'll buy dried fish in Zhmernyka” (I don’t understand this reference for Vinnytsia Oblast)
- українофоби “Ukrainophobes” (I’m guessing that the people of Odessa Oblast aren’t sufficiently enthusiastic about being Ukrainian for the people from Lviv)
- депутати-запроданці “deputies-scoundrels” (I guess that people from Lviv feel that the central government doesn’t represent and that they’re wretched urbanites/politicians anyway)
- тут роблять пиво “They make beer here” (I guess that Chernihivske beer is the only worthwhile association to Chernihiv Oblast)
- десь біля Києва “somewhere near Kyiv” (Cherkasy, Poltava and Kirovohrad Oblasts don’t conjure much for people from Lviv hence the vague reference to their position relative to Kyiv)
- кавуни “watermelons” (this probably refers to Mykolaiv and Kherson Oblasts being the main producers of the country’s watermelons)
- комуняки “commies” (refers to Crimea’s Russian majority’s long-standing and strong identification with the Kremlin’s control)
- тут жили козаки “Cossacks lived here” (the Zaporozhian Cossacks were a notable host of Cossacks who controlled most of what are now the modern Dnipropetrovsk and Zaporizhia Oblasts)
- майже Росія “almost Russia” (the proximity of Sumy and Kharkiv Oblasts to Russia is behind this label)
- Ахметов “Akhmetov” (Rinat Akhmetov is an oligarch who was born in Donetsk)
- терикони “spoil tips” (a spoil tip is a pile of waste rock that comes from coal mining; Luhansk Oblast contains several coal mines and is similar to Donetsk Oblast with heavy industry and mining being important economic sectors)

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

MISCELLANEOUS

I hope that I’ll be able to add a new section or two to my guide to Uralic languages before the summer is over (it’s about two-thirds finished). I’m also planning to issue a team challenge during that time to the survivors of Sisu and Sokoły / Соколи.

______


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Chung
Diglot
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Joined 4502 days ago

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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 455 of 541
13 July 2014 at 8:48am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.

To change things up a bit, here’s a comic strip in Czech rather than Slovak.



(From 191-200 via Garfield se užírá (Czech translation “Garfield Eats his Heart Out: His Sixth Book”) at Garfield a jeho stripy)

2) “Huh, where did the birds go?”
3) “I was looking forward to a morning snack.”
4) “They're probably somewhere else.”
5) “I’ll come back here a bit later.”
6) *GASP!*

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 10

Dialog 4 / Dialóg 3

I: Přinesu ještě nože a vidličky. Jsou tam lžice?

I: Prinesiem ešte nože a vidličky. Sú tam lyžice?

“I’ll bring the knives and forks. Are the spoons there?”


Z: Jo. Ty už jsou na stole. Buďte tak hodný, přineste taky nějaké talíře a ty velké sklenice.

Z: Áno. Už sú na stole. Buďte taký láskavý, prineste aj nejaké taniere a tie veľké poháre!

“Yes. They’re already on the table. Please bring also some plates and those big glasses.”

Cz: jo | Sk: hej “yeah, yup”
Cz: ano | Sk: áno “yes”

Cz: hodný | Sk: láskavý “gracious, kind”

Czech however does contain the word laskavý which differs from the Slovak láskavý by having a short vowel in the first syllable rather than a long one. It is also possible to say in Czech buď tak laskav or buď tak laskavý instead of buď tak hodný. Slovak conversely contains hodný but it represents a bit of a false friend in that it means “deserving, worthy” rather than “gracious, kind”.

Cz: talíř | Sk: tanier “plate”

As far as I can tell, each word is unique to its own language.


I: Michal a Pavel se tak pěkně oblékají, že jo. Kupují si drahé oblečení: krásné kalhoty, kravaty a saka. Asi chtějí vypadat jako praví angličtí bankéři!

I: Michal a Pavol sa tak pekne obliekajú. Kupujú si drahé oblečenie: krásne nohavice, kravaty a saká. Asi chcú vyzerať ako praví Angličania!

“Michal and Pavel / Pavol dress so well. They buy for themselves expensive clothing: beautiful trousers, neckties and blazers. They probably want to look like true English bankers! / Englishmen!

Cz: oblékat > obléct | Sk: obliekať > obliecť “to wear”
Cz: oblečení | Sk: oblečenie “clothes, clothing”

See this post under Cz: polévka | Sk: polievka for comments on Czech counterparts to Slovak -ie-. See here under Cz: jak se máte? | Sk: ako sa máte? for related comments on different conjugation as exemplified here under oblékají vs. obliekajú.

Cz: kalhoty | Sk: nohavice “pants [non-UK English], trousers”

Kalhoty as far as I can tell is unique to Czech. On the other hand, nohavice does exist in both languages although there is a semantic difference depending on the language. In Czech, nohavice refers to the leg or lower part of a pair of pants and is in feminine singular. In Slovak, nohavice is in feminine plural and refers to the entire pair of trousers.

Cz: saka (< sako) | Sk: saká (< sako) “blazers, (suit) jackets”

This pair illustrates another declensional difference between the languages. For neuter nouns that end in -o in nominative singular, the nominative plural ending is -a in Czech but in Slovak. This also applies to accusative given the merger of nominative and accusative for these types of nouns. Compare the respective declension of sako in Czech and Slovak.

Cz: bankéři (< bankéř) | Sk: bankári (< bankár) “bankers” (masculine animate, nominative plural)
Cz: angličtí (< anglický) | Sk: anglickí (< anglický) “English” (masculine animate, nominative plural)
Cz: Angličané (< Angličan) | Sk: Angličania (< Angličan) “Englishmen” (masculine animate, nominative plural)

Even though the Czech and Slovak lines aren’t translateable to the same in English, if the Slovak phrase were converted to match the Czech one exactly or vice-versa, the translation for “English bankers” or “Englishmen” would draw on slightly different words and show inflectional differences between the languages (see here under Cz: bratři | Sk: bratia “brothers” and Cz: staří | Sk: starí “old” for related discussions)


Z: A vy?

Z: A vy?

“How about you?”


I: Radši nosím džíny a stará trička nebo svetry.

I: Radšej nosím džínsy a staré tričká alebo svetre.

“I prefer to wear jeans and old shirts or sweaters.”

Cz: radši | Sk: radšej “rather”

Different spelling reflects different pronounciation.

Cz: džíny | Sk: džínsy “(pair) of jeans”

Czech also allows for džínsy thus matching the Slovak term. Czech džíny is feminine plural only, while džínsy is masculine plural only. Slovak allows for džíny as a colloquialism which matches the Czech term. Slovak džínsy can be declined as if it were masculine plural or feminine plural one.

According to Wikipedia, Czechs and Slovaks can translate “jeans” as follows:
Cz: džínsy, džíny, jeans(y), rifle, texasky (rare)
Sk: džínsy, džíny (slang), rifle, texasky, texy (slang)

Comparing this pair of words reminded me of the terms used in BCMS/SC to translate “jeans” with a few terms being common while others were closely associated with one of Croats or Serbs only. See here under Cr: 5) traperice | Sr: farmerke for discussion.


Z: A boty?

Z: A topánky?"

“And [what about] shoes?”

Cz: boty (< bota) | Sk: topánky (< topánka) “shoes” etc.

Slovak contains the term bota as an alternative to bôta although it is an old, regional term for a boot. The dictionary of written Czech contains entries for topánky with it being a dialectal term for small logs as firewood and a Slovakcism referring to women’s high heels or leather footwear.


I: V zimě nějaké solidní boty a v létě sandály - nebo adidasky.

I: V zime nejaké staré čižmy a v lete sandále.

- “Some sturdy shoes in winter and sandals in summer - or running shoes.”
- “Some old boots in winer and sandals in summer.”

Cz: solidní | Sk: solídny “solid, sturdy; reputable”

The Czech adjective inflects as a “soft” adjective thanks to its ending -ní in masculine nominative singular while the Slovak one inflects as a “hard” one.

Comparison of “hard” (as a rule marked by adjectives ending in -y (Slovak only) or (both languages) in nominative singular) and “soft” declension for adjectives in Czech and Slovak (as a rule marked by adjectives ending in -i (Slovak only) or (both languages) in nominative singular).

e.g. “good” (masculine singular) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: dobrý, dobrý / dobrého, dobrého, dobrému, dobrém, dobrým
Sk: dobrý, dobrý / dobrého, dobrého, dobrému, dobrom, dobrým

e.g. “third” (masculine singular) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: třetí, třetí / třetího, třetího, třetímu, třetím, třetím
Sk: tretí, tretí / tretieho, tretieho, tretiemu, treťom, tretím

e.g. “solid” (masculine singular) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: solidní, solidní / solidního, solidního, solidnímu, solidním, solidním (“soft” declension for Czech)
Sk: solídny, solídny / solídneho, solídneho, solídnemu, solídnom, solídnym (“hard” declension for Slovak)

See here under Cz: její | Sk: jej “her” for related discussion.

Cz: bota (< bota) | Sk: čižmy (< čižma) “boots”

In Czech, boty can refer to boots or shoes whereas Slovak generally distinguishes shoes from boots by using topánky and čižmy respectively. The latter term is ultimately of Ottoman Turkish origin (cf. Modern Turkish çizme) and made its way to the Slovak lexicon via Hungarian csizma which in turn came from a Southern Slavonic language (cf. BCMS/SC čizma) whose speakers had picked up the Ottoman word.


Z: A co klobouky?

Z: A čo klobúky?

“And what about hats?”

Cz: klobouk | Sk: klobúk “hat”

Different spelling reflects different pronunciation even though the words are otherwise very similar.


I: Ty nenosím vůbec nikdy! Ani čepice, i když je sníh a tuhý mráz.

I: Tie vôbec nikdy nenosím! Ani čiapky, aj keď je sneh a tuhý mráz.

“I never wear those! Not even caps even when there’s snow and hard frost.”

Cz: čepice | Sk: čiapka “cap”

Czech also has čapka which is closer to the Slovak term used in the dialogue. In a similar way, Slovak also has čapica which is closer to the Czech term used in the dialogue. However none of these terms are fully identical as their divergent spellings reflect different pronunications.

Cz: sníh | Sk: sneh “snow”

Different spelling reflects different pronunciation even though the words are otherwise very similar.


Z: Jste vy normální? Nemrznou vám uši?

Z: Ste vy normálny? Nemrznú vám uši?

“Are you normal? Don’t your ears freeze?”

Cz: normální | Sk: normálny “normal”

See preceding comments in this entry under Cz: solidní | Sk: solídny for related analysis of “soft” declension for adjectives in both languages. See also Cz: bílý | Sk: biely for application of rhythmic law as suggested here by the difference between normální and normálny.

Cz: nemrznou | Sk: nemrznú “(they) will not freeze”

The conjugational patterns for verbs whose infinitives end in -nout and -núť / -nuť are not identical.

“to freeze; I freeze, you freeze, he/she/it freeze, we freeze, you freeze, they freeze (present); I froze (past)”

Cz: mrznout; já mrznu, ty mrzneš, on/ona/ono mrzne, my mrzneme, vy mrznete, oni/ony/ona mrznou; mrz(nu)l jsem
Sk: mrznúť; ja mrznem, ty mrzneš, on/ona/ono mrzne, my mrzneme, vy mrznete, oni/ony mrznú; mrzol som


I: Možná jsem trochu blázen, ale mám kožené rukavice a teplou šálu a to mi stačí.

I: Možno som trochu blázon, ale mám kožené rukavice a teplý šál a to mi stačí.

“I am possibly a bit of nut but I have leather gloves and a warm scarf and that’s enough for me.”

Cz: možná | Sk: možno

In Czech, možno also turns up as a literary alternative to možná.

Cz: blázen | Sk: blázon “lunatic”

Different spelling reflects different pronunciation even though the words are otherwise very similar.

Cz: šála | Sk: šál “scarf”

Strictly speaking, both šál and šála acceptable in both languages, although in Slovak šála is marked as a rare alternative to šál in the older edition of the Slovak descriptive dictionary (1959-1968).


Z: Aspoň vám nemrznou ruce!

Z: No, aspoň vám ruky nemrznú!

- “Well, At least your hands won’t freeze!”

All other differences have been covered in previous entries.
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Chung
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Joined 4502 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 456 of 541
03 August 2014 at 11:02pm | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've started working on Chapter 1 of “Finnish for Foreigners 2” which begins with a text describing a middle-class family by doing the accompanying comprehension exercises in the workbook. The grammar notes to the chapter introduce the use of phrases expressing interest (e.g. luen mielelläni / minusta on hauska lukea “I read with pleasure / I think that it's nice to read" ~ "I enjoy reading") as well as active participles (-nut/-nyt, -va/-vä) although I haven't started the exercises in the workbook on these. I also began to use Ymmärrä suomea! and finished working on the first text, Alkutekstit.



(From Oswald - Sarjakuva)

1) “Oswald, tidy up your room.”
2) “Why do I always have to obey you guys? - Because we give you a warm meal and a roof over your head.”
3) “Is that so?! And what if I don't obey you?”
4) “The question was hypothetical!”

- totella (tottelen, totteli, totellut) “to obey”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

KOREAN

I've finished Lessons B, C, D, E, F and G in “Korean from Zero 1”. These were the remaining lessons focused on Hangul but the last three lessons didn’t involve the relatively painstaking task of writing characters over and over. Instead they covered typing (I’m still getting used to it since the keyboard layout is very different from anything else that I’ve used) and some comments about syllabic structure and sound changes involving certain symbols at the end of a syllable. From now on, I’ll be working on the regular chapters of this book as well as finally getting into “Spoken World Korean”.

***

POLISH

I’ve continued working on Chapter 4 of “Kiedyś wrócisz tu... część 1: Gdzie nadwiślański brzeg” by doing the exercises involving phrases or “conversation connectors” used for giving or receiving advice.



(From via Tori Komix - 06/06/2014)

1) “What’re you watching? - ‘Around the World in 80 Days’”
2) “80 days? That’s hardly impressive. One can do that in a few hours in a good airplane.”
3) “You don’t understand. It’s based on a classic... - OK, it doesn’t matter. Let me know when they’re showing ‘Around the Universe in 80 Days’.”

- oparty o... (oparte / oparci, opartego) “based on...”*

*Apparently this seems to be ungrammatical per this thread. Using the adjective with o (+ accusative) is frowned upon or crowded out by the adjective with na (+ locative).

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (nominative plural, genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 2nd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

TURKISH

I worked through Unit 25 of “Turkish Self-Study Course” and finished Unit 7 of “Elementary Turkish” (pgs. 124-6). The former introduced how to express the present continuous in negative and in questions while from the latter I learned how to express incidental possession (e.g. bende büyük sözlük var / yok “I have / don’t have a big dictionary” literally “on-me big dictionary there is / there is not”) and ownership (e.g. benim büyük sözlüğüm var / yok “I own / don’t own a big dictionary” literally “I-my big dictionary-my there is / there is not), how to use kaç (tane) “how many” and how to form the imperative.

***

UKRAINIAN

I've worked through the Chapter 3 of “Colloquial Ukrainian” and went over possessive adjectives and present tense, and more work on the genitive and locative. The work is going quickly.

For the usual comic, I’ll be instead showing in sequence maps of Ukraine that are modelled on Yanko Tsvetkov’s work in “Mapping Stereotypes”. I welcome feedback or comments from the Ukrainian posters since they may be able to clarify further the subtext of the stereotypes many of which I’m admittedly rather clueless about.



(From Карти України очима її жителів)

Map of Ukraine in the eyes of citizens from Kyiv (generally from left to right)

- замки, гори і вино “castles, mountains and wine” (The Transcarpathian Oblast is indeed a mountainous region and also an important part of the domestic wine industry, although oddly none of the castles there make the cut for the Seven Wondrous Castles and Palaces of Ukraine)
- трамваї, храми і кав’ярні “streetcars, temples and cafés” (This refers to life in Lviv rather than the oblast and maybe even a reference to its vaguely Viennese connection from the Austro-Hungarian era given the mention of the city’s coffee culture)
- Буковель “Bukovel’” (Bukovel’ is the country’s largest ski resort and found in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast)
- волинські партизани “Volhynian partisans” (The Ukrainian Insurgent Army arose in Volhynia during World War II and its guerillas/members were most active in this oblast as well as in neighbouring Rivne Oblast. Despite external depiction (primarily Russian/Soviet but also Polish) as comprising only of terrorists, Nazi collaborators or vicious racists, the army also fought against the Germans/Nazis seeing them also as obstacles to establishing Ukrainian independence)
- вишиванки “Vyshyvankas” (I gather that those almost stereotypical embroidered shirts are worn more often in Ternopil’ Oblast than the rest of Ukraine).
- Червона Рута “Red Rue” (This is the title of a famous song by Volodymyr Ivasyuk who was born in Chernivtsi Oblast)
- тут народився Богдан Хмельницький “Bohdan Khmel’nyts’kyj was born here.” (this seems to make light of a misconception since Khmelnytskyi Oblast is a renaming of the previous Kam’yanets’-Podil’s’ka Oblast and the Hetman, Bohdan Khmel’nyts’kyj, was probably born instead in Cherkasy Oblast)
- буряки “beets” (I gather that Vinnytsia Oblast has many beet farms)
- Житомирська траса “Zhytomyrian way” (I suspect that it refers to either this state highway or this one, both of which are the main highways that go west from Kyiv.)
- жемчyжина у моря “Little pearl on the sea” (Russian) (This seems to be an allusion to Odesa’s importance in the Russian psyche even though it’s in Ukraine)
- Понаїхали “Come on! / They arrived” (I don’t understand this reference for Kyiv Oblast)
- Конча-заспа “Koncha-Zaspa” (Koncha-Zaspa is actually a southern district of Kyiv but I suppose that the humour is that it’s so large that Cherkasy Oblast to the south is also part of Kyiv Oblast)
- помідорчики на дачі “little tomatoes at the cottage” (Many cottages in Chernihiv Oblast are owned by people from Kyiv)
- десь у центрі “somewhere in the center” (Kirovohrad Oblast seems to register little more than perfunctory attention from Kyivans)
- кораблі “warships” (The main Ukrainian shipyards are in Mykolayiv, capital of Mykolayiv Oblast. In Soviet times, these were the main shipyards for the USSR)
- кетчуп “ketchup” (Kherson Oblast is known for manufacturing ketchup)
- в Турсії дешевше “it’s cheaper in Turkey” (Until the annexation of Crimea, the Oblast was the most popular destination for Ukrainians (and many Russians) who wanted to relax at a subtropical beach without going too far; the high demand also boosted prices)
- Тимошенко “Tymoshenko” (Yuliya Tymoshenko was born in Dnipropetrovsk)
- ярмарка “the market fair” (Russian) (this refers to Sorochyntsi Fair held in Poltava Oblast)
- електричка до Конотопа “streetcar to Konotop” (the town of Konotop in Sumy Oblast is an important railroad junction despite the city being rather small (~ 90,000 inhabitants))
- Міша і Геша “Misha and Hesha” (this refers to the politicians Mykhailo Dobkin and Hennadiy Kernes, with the former being a former mayor of Kharkiv and the latter being the current one.)
- Хортиця (та, що на столі) “Khortysya (that which goes on the table)” (this refers to an island on the Dnipro river which flows through Zaporizhia Oblast and also a brand of vodka which is produced there)
- мафія “mafia” (Donbas Oblast’s is stereotyped for its shady character or links to organized crime (possibly reinforced by the oblast’s Russian sympathies and stereotypes of Russians being gangsters)
- майже Росія “almost Russia” (Luhansk Oblast forming part of the border with Russia not to mention the relatively higher sympathy of its citizens towards Russia are behind this label)

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

MISCELLANEOUS

I'm already thinking about what little linguistic projects to do/start next year... >:-)
______




1 person has voted this message useful



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