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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Chung
Diglot
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Joined 4620 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 409 of 541
20 December 2013 at 7:59am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From S H O O T Y - ...som Grogy)

1) “You have extremely high standards for yourself. You can’t be liked by everyone.”
2) “But we’ll work on that.”
7) “This type of humour could be effective.”

- zaberať > zabrať (zaberá, zaberajú > zaberie, zaberú) “to take effect, take hold“ (colloquial)
- Ø > zapáčiť sa (zapáči sa, zapáčia sa) “to appeal to sb, to take sb’s fancy“ (perfective only)

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 4

Dialog 3 / Dialóg 3

P: Co si přejete?

P: Čo si želáte?

“What would you like?” (literally: “What do you want for yourself?”)

Cz: přát si | Sk: želať si “to desire, wish for, have (for oneself)”

Despite the use of different verbs, each language has reflexes of Proto-Slavonic *prijati and *želěti.

*prijati > Cz: přát (si), Sk: priať (si)

*želěti > Cz: želat, Sk: želať (si)

However there is a subtle difference in that přát si and its associated conjugations have assumed most of the functions covered by using želat and its associated conjugations. The descriptive dictionary of standard Czech marks the latter form as literary and archaic.

On the other hand, priať si and želať si are current in Slovak and when expressing the idea of someone wanting something are interchangeable.

Incidentally, French Wiktionary has an interesting bit of trivia on the etymology of přát (si). The word’s root is cognate with the Proto-Germanic *frija- etc. meaning “free; love” (which in turn are reflexes of Proto-Indo-European *prāy- / *prēy “to like, love”). A German cognate of this Czech and Slovak verb is freien “to court” while English cognates include “free” and “friend”.

Given the preceding, one could use one of the following sets to reduce the difference but it would be impossible to remove it entirely.

Cz: Co si přejete? / Co želáte?
Sk: Čo si prajete? / Čo si želáte?

J: Sklenici mléka, třikrát zmrzlinu, jednou kávu a dvakrát kolu prosím. A skleničku vína.

J: Prosím si pohár mlieka, zmrzlinu, šálku kávy a jednu pepsikolu. A pohárik vína.


Cz: “A glass of milk, three scoops of ice cream, one coffee and two Cokes, please. And a glass of wine.”
Sk: “I would like a glass of milk, ice cream, a cup of coffee and one Pepsi. And a glass of wine.”

For some reason the dialogues’ content isn’t identical but I will compare them as evenly as possible.

Cz: sklenice | Sk: pohár “glass”

According to the dictionary of standard Czech, pohár is a literary term for a glass or cup. It wouldn’t be ungrammatical in Czech (if not stylistically odd) for sklenice to be replaced by pohár in this sentence. On the other hand, sklenice has no formal equivalent in Slovak (i.e. *sklenica). Its functions are assumed by pohár. However, I suspect that the average Slovak would be able to figure out the meaning of sklenice on the strength of the Slovak terms sklo “glass” (i.e. the material, not the drinking implement).

Cz: mléko | Sk: mlieko “milk”

Small difference in pronunciation as reflected in the orthography.

Cz: třikrát | Sk: trikrát “three times, thrice, three helpings/portions/servings/scoops of...”

Even though the Slovak dialogue did not have the word, I have included it here for completeness’ sake. The formal difference is in pronunciation as suggested by the orthography (i.e. tři- vs. tri-) (see related discussion of jednou kávu below).

Cz: jednou kávu | Sk: jednu kávu “one [cup/order of] coffee”

In Czech and Slovak, jeden “one” declines much like an adjective although Czech can use a form that does not exist in Slovak to express a nuance that is expressable in both languages. According to this discussion on WordReference, Jednou kávu, prosím. “(I’d like) one coffee, please” is translatable literally as “Once coffee, please” and would correspond to saying “One (order) of coffee, please”. Furthermore it is the analogue of Dvakrát kávu, prosím., Třikrát kávu, prosím. etc. “Twice coffee, please”, “Thrice coffee, please” etc.. On the other hand, Jednu kávu, prosím is understood in Czech to mean “One (cup of) coffee, please” and is the analogue of Dvě kávy, prosím, Tří kávy, prosím etc. meaning “Two (cups of) coffee, please.”, “Three (cups) of coffee, please.” etc. In general it seems that the terms are interchangeble in Czech although at least one native speaker, winpoj, does perceive a semantic distinction between jednou kávu and jednu kávu.

winpoj wrote:
Myslím, že určitý rozdíl může existovat v závislosti na kontextu. Například “uvařil jsem jednu kávu” znamená, že jsem připravil jeden šálek. Kdežto “uvařil jsem jednou kávu” znamená, že jsem to udělal jednou, i když šálků mohlo být více.
Při objednávání kávy v restauraci bych normálně řekl spíš “jednu kávu”. “Jednou kávu” bych použil především v případě, že bych objednával pro skupinu lidí různé věci. Např.: Jednou kávu, dvakrát pivo a jednou borůvkový džus tady pro Marušku.


Chung’s translation wrote:
I think that a definite difference can exist depending on context. For example, “uvařil jsem jednu kávu” means that I made one cup (of coffee). However, “uvařil jsem jednou kávu” means that I made a batch of coffee and there could have been several cups’ worth.

When ordering coffee in a restaurant, I would normally say “jednu kávu”. I would use “jednou kávu” above all in the case when I would order several items for a group of people. For example, ‘One coffee, two beers and one bluberry juice here for Maruška’)


For Slovak, jedenkrát or (jeden) raz assume the function held by Czech jednou although jedenkrát is also valid in standard Czech.

Out of this analysis it seems that in the interest of removing divergence one could juxtapose the following pairs:

“One coffee, please”
Cz: Jedenkrát kávu, prosím., Jednu kávu, prosím.
Sk: Jedenkrát kávu, prosím., Jednu kávu, prosím.

To establish divergence one could juxtapose the following pair:

“One coffee, please”
Cz: Jednou kávu, prosím.
Sk: Jedenkrát kávu, prosím.

Cz: šálek | Sk: šálka “cup”

Even though the Czech dialogue did not have the word, I have included it here for comparison’s sake. The formal difference is that the word is masculine in Czech (as suggested by ending in a “hard” consonant) and feminine in Slovak (as suggested by ending in –a) which leads to different declensional patterns being followed. However if somehow the forms were identical in Czech and Slovak, they would then be identical in some cases including the accusative singular.

“A cup of coffee, please”
Cz: Šálek kávy, prosím.
Sk: Šálku kávy, prosím.

In an imaginary world for Czech…

Cz: *Šálku kávy, prosím. (using imaginary Czech *šálka)
Sk: Šálku kávy, prosím.

In an imaginary world for Slovak…

Cz: Šálek kávy, prosím.
Sk: *Šálek kávy, prosím. (using imaginary Slovak *šálek)

Cz: sklenička | Sk: pohárik “glass” (diminutive)

See the comparison of sklenice and pohár for related discussion. As noted earlier, pohár is valid in standard Czech despite its perception of being literary or archaic. The corresponding diminutive is pohárek which is similar but not identical to the Slovak pohárik. As with the absence of a formal Slovak counterpart to sklenice (i.e. *sklenica) it follows that sklenička is also missing from Slovak.

P: Bílé nebo červené víno?

P: Biele alebo červené víno?

“White or red wine?”

Cz: bílý | Sk: biely “white”

The difference in this pair illustrates a fundamental and wide-ranging phonological difference between Czech and Slovak which may escape a superficial examination.

The Central Slovak dialects which form the basis of modern standard Slovak are marked by a phonological characteristic where a syllable with a long vowel is typically followed by a syllable with a short vowel (there are certain exceptions as found in some loanwords and certain derivatives). This is known as the Slovak Rythmic Law. In Czech, this characteristic is not applicable. A comparable phenomenon exists only under the morphological condition whereby a root-vowel that is short is followed by a prefix with a long vowel (see here for an analysis of the Czech rhythmic law. In other words, Czech under a certain condition applies a partial reversal of the Slovak application, but otherwise ignores it altogether.

From the learner’s point of view, Slovak is distiniguishable from Czech by forbidding adjacent syllables to be long which in Czech is almost always grammatical.

In the above example with bílý and biely, both vowels in the Czech term are long whereas in the Slovak cognate, the second syllable is short rather than the usual long one used to form adjectives since the preceding syllable’s -ie- is long (N.B. in Slovak, diphthongs are lengthened sounds).

Other examples from adjectives include:

“domestic/home”, “beautiful”, “constant”, “men’s”, “fast”
Cz: domácí, krásný, pánský, stálý, rýchlý
Sk: domáci, krásny, pánsky, stály, rýchly

Compare the preceding with adjectives for which the Slovak rhythmic law cannot be applied. In other words, the adjectival endings are the expected long vowels.

“Czech”, “good”, “kind”, “Slovak”, “free”
Cz: český, dobrý, milý, slovenský, volný
Sk: český, dobrý, milý, slovenský, voľný

The rhythmic law also appears regularly in Slovak inflection while being absent in corresponding Czech forms (differences underlined)

“Don’t worry! I’m giving everything to you.”
Cz: Neboj. Já ti teď dávám všechno.
Sk: Netrap sa! Ja ti teraz dávam všetko.

“What do you think of today’s homework assignments?”
Cz: Co si o dnešních domácích úlohách myslíš?
Sk: Čo si o dnešných domácich úlohách myslíš?

“We’ll be right back.”
Cz: Hned se vrátíme.
Sk: Hneď sa vrátime.

Cz: (a)nebo | Sk: alebo “or”

Codified difference although similar enough that Czechs and Slovaks could readily understand the meaning.

J: Červené.

J: Červené.

“Red”

Identical.

P: A jakou si přejete zmrzlinu? Jahodovou, čokoládovou nebo vanilkovou?

P: A akú si želáte zmrzlinu? Jahodovú, čokoládovú alebo vanilkovú?

“And what kind of ice cream would you like? Strawberry, chocolate or vanilla?”

For some reason the corresponding Slovak lines were missing in the original. In the interest of comparison, I have come up with a Slovak version to match the Czech sentences. I have underlined it to emphasize that it is not found in my copy of “Colloquial Slovak”.

Cz: jakou | Sk: akú “what kind of” (feminine accusative singular)

This difference was first touched upon in an earlier comparison of Czech jak and Slovak ako “how”. The pair immediately preceding also shows the difference between Czech and Slovak in declining adjectives in feminine singular.

(feminine singular) nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental
Cz: jaká, jakou, jaké, jaké, jaké, jakou
Sk: aká, akú, akej, akej, akej, akou

J: Dvakrát jahodovou a jednou vanilkovou.

J: Dvakrát jahodovú a jednu vanilkovú.

“Two strawberry (scoops) and one of vanilla.”
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renaissancemedi
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Greece
Joined 1822 days ago

941 posts - 366 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2
Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 410 of 541
20 December 2013 at 8:20am | IP Logged 
That was a very interesting Turkish update. I also compare in my head all the languages I know or am learning, for memory purposes but also because I love the connections.

In your examples, I assume kutu is box in Turkish. Compare it with kuti (κουτί=box) we use in Greek (apparently a loan), although the greek word we also use is κιβώτιο. So, I just learned the turkish word for box, and will not forget it!

Nice work Chung. I might be doing this in my log as well. Thanks for the inspiration :)



solka
Tetraglot
Groupie
Kazakhstan
Joined 4012 days ago

44 posts - 17 votes
Speaks: Kazakh, Russian*, Turkish, EnglishC2
Studies: FrenchB1, Japanese

 
 Message 411 of 541
20 December 2013 at 8:52am | IP Logged 
renaissancemedi
kuti (κουτί=box) we use in Greek (apparently a loan).
Etymological dictionary says that the Turkish 'kutu' is, on the contrary, a loan from
Greek.

For the Turkish example of the locatives, I think this example is not the best:
Köpek arabada. / Köpek arabanın içinde. “The dog is in the car.”
Köpek arabada. / Köpek arabanın üstünde. “The dog is on the car.”
I don't think that anyone would think that 'the dog is ON the car', because normally you
wouldn't put a dog ON a car, you would expect it inside the car. But if you talk about a
table/desk, then you could say that:
Kalem masada. means The pen is ON or IN [the desk of] the table/desk.
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renaissancemedi
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Greece
Joined 1822 days ago

941 posts - 366 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2
Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 412 of 541
20 December 2013 at 8:55am | IP Logged 
Κυτίον. You are right! I still won't forget it :)



stelingo
Hexaglot
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United Kingdom
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722 posts - 357 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, French, German, Italian
Studies: Russian, Czech, Polish, Greek, Mandarin

 
 Message 413 of 541
21 December 2013 at 12:37am | IP Logged 
Pohár is used in standard Czech to mean trophy, as in fotbalový pohár. It's also used in zmrzlinový pohár a sundae.
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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4620 days ago

4232 posts - 4073 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 414 of 541
26 December 2013 at 6:16am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I finished working through Chapter 38 including doing its speaking drills three times. The exercises involved familiarizing myself with the essive case, reviewing the expressions for obligation (i.e. täytyy, pitää, olla pakko, tarvitsee) and answering some comphrension questions for texts.



(From Elämä 2.0 via Sosiallisesti rajoittuneet)

1) “IP, why aren’t you even interested in computers? – Look, I have a life.”
3) “Where did you find yours? I can’t find that app in the store.”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

UKRAINIAN

I finished the exercises in Chapter 12 of “Modern Ukrainian” which were comprehension questions for several short texts.



(From Комікси УКРАЇНСЬКОЮ©)

1) “What do you want for supper? – No difference to me. Choose [it] yourself.”
2) “Monster.”

- бажати (бажаю, бажають) > побажати (побажаю, побажають) “to wish for, yearn for; want” (in standard language and as I was taught when using this verb, the object of desire is in genitive (e.g. Бажаю вам успіху “I wish to you success”). However it is possible to see the object declined in accusative instead in a question (e.g. Що бажають державі Україна у майбутньому 2012 році?, Що бажають на день народження?, Огляд преси: Що бажають Президенту у день народження народні депутати? - not Чого бажають...).
- тварюка (тварюки) “creature, monster”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

Boldog Karácsonyt! / Wesołych Świąt! / Buorit juovllat! / Veselé Vianoce! / Hyvää joulua!
______


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Chung
Diglot
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20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 415 of 541
26 December 2013 at 6:21am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From S H O O T Y - ...som Grogy)

4) “Buddy, I told you not to grab onto it!”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 4

Dialog 4 / Dialóg 4

M: Promiňte, nevíte, jestli tady není paní Čermáková? Myslím, že tady pracuje. Mám tady vzkaz od její sestry.

M: Prepáčte, neviete či tu nie je pani Horáková? Myslím, že tu pracuje. Mám tu odkaz od jej sestry.

“Excuse me, do you know if Mrs. Čermáková / Horáková works here? I think that she works here. I have here a message from her sister.”

Cz: prominout | Sk: prepáčiť “to excuse” (perfective)

Each verb is codified only for its own standard. A supposed Czech analogy of the Slovak form as *propáčit and vice-versa with Slovak using *preminúť are unknown.

Cz: jestli | Sk: či “if, whether”

The Czech form arose as a combination of older jest “(he/she/it) is” and -li (particle suggesting a binary question ~ “if, whether”) but has no formal equivalent in modern Slovak (hypothetically *je(st)li). In some instances, Slovak ak “if” assumes the semantic functions covered by Czech jestli while in others či “if, whether” performs this role. On the other hand, či is codified in Czech per the dictionary of the standard language. It seems that in Czech one could use či instead of jestli in this sentence without being ungrammatical. In my dealings with Czechs, jestli rather than či seems to be used more frequently when translating “if, whether” as part of a binary supposition/proposal (i.e. yes-no).

Cz: paní | Sk: pani “madam, Mrs.”

Codified difference in pronunciation and orthography, subtle as it is.

Cz: vzkaz | Sk: odkaz “message”

According to the descriptive dictionary of standard Czech, odkaz is translateable as “link, reference; inheritance, legacy; warning”. In Slovak odkaz can refer to a legacy or reference as in Czech (especially in literary registers), however outside that register it also refers to a banal message – sometime which is missing in the Czech word. On the other hand, Slovak vzkaz referring to a message as it does in Czech is attested but it is obsolete and/or literary.

The bottom line is that while both words are attested in Czech and Slovak, one should take heed to the different meanings or connotations around them. In a sense, they’re partial false friends. Odkaz in Czech to refer to a message would be stretching the semantics if one insinuates that the message is actually a warning or reference. On the other hand, odkaz to a Slovak would refer to any message (i.e. it need not be a warning or reference). On the other hand, using vzkaz on Slovaks nowadays to refer to a message would likely strike the native speakers as a Czechism or an instance of using an obsolete and/or literary version of odkaz.

Cz: její | Sk: jej “her” (possessive adjective/pronoun)

The declensional patterns of the possessive adjectives/pronouns in Czech are not identical to those in Slovak. There is an additional dimension to the divergence between Czech and Slovak in that the former has two sets of declensions to reflect the coexistence of colloquial and formal norms.

For succintness’ sake, I will show only the patterns in the standard languages on the model of “her” (i.e. possessor is third person singular feminine with possessed object in singular). Showing the full patterns in each of Czech and Slovak which on one side account for the identity of the possessors (i.e. “my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their”) and on the other the gender and number of the possessed objects (not to mention the difference between colloquial and standard Czech) would only emphasize my point about the divergence between Czech and Slovak on this topic. The declensional patterns are as follows:

“her sister” [feminine] (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: její sestra, její sestru, její sestry, její sestře, její sestře, její sestrou
Sk: jej sestra, jej sestru, jej sestry, jej sestre, jej sestre, jej sestrou

“her brother” [masculine animate] (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: její bratr, jejího bratra, jejího bratra, jejímu bratrovi (bratru), jejím bratrovi (bratru), jejím bratrem
Sk: jej brat, jej brata, jej brata, jej bratovi, jej bratovi, jej bratom

“her house” [masculine inanimate] (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: její dům, její dům, jejího domu, jejímu domu, jejím domu (domě), jejím domem
Sk: jej dom, jej dom, jej domu, jej domu, jej dome, jej domom

“her car” [neuter] (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)

Cz: její auto, její auto, jejího auta, jejímu autu, jejím autu (autě), jejím autem
Sk: jej auto, jej auto, jej auta, jej autu, jej aute, jej autom

Její resembling other soft adjectives (e.g. cizí “foreign”, třetí “third”) as suggested by final –í is linked to its being declinable (e.g. nominative singular její vs. dative masculine singular jejímu ). Jej on the other hand is indeclinable (possibly because it ends in –j which is at odds with other Slovak adjectives whose endings are –ý/–y or –í/–i in nominative masculine singular).

P: Ano, mladý pane, pracuje tady. Aha, právě jde. Máte štěstí. Dobrý den, paní Čermáková, máte návštěvu. Ja už jdu domů. Na shledanou.

P: Áno, mladý pán, pracuje tu. Aha, práve ide. Máte šťastie. Dobrý deň, pani Horáková, máte návštevu. Ja už idem domov. Do videnia.

“Yes, young man, she works here. Ah, she’s just coming now. You’re in luck. Hello Mrs. Čermáková / Horáková, you have a visitor. I’m going home now. Goodbye.”

Cz: pane | Sk: pán "Mr., sir, man" (vocative)

As noted here using the examples of Adame! Evo! versus Adam! Eva!, Czech uses the vocative, whereas its almost total absence in Slovak has made relics of it treated as exceptions rather than examples of a once flourishing grammatical case.

Cz: právě | Sk: práve “barely, just, only”

Different orthography reflects different pronunciation, subtle as the difference is.

Cz: domů | Sk: domov “home, homeward”

Compare pronunciation of Czech domů with that of Slovak domov.

Požehnané vánoční svátky! / Požehnané vianočné sviatky!

Edited by Chung on 26 December 2013 at 11:31pm

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hribecek
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
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Speaks: English*, Czech, Spanish
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 Message 416 of 541
28 December 2013 at 1:01pm | IP Logged 
Just to say that I've enjoyed following your log this year and look forward to following
it again next year. Yours is my favourite log on the forum, especially since Ellasevia
has stopped being active on his.



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