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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5563 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 193 of 541
26 October 2012 at 7:05pm | IP Logged 
viedums wrote:
To my mind the really interesting thing to look at is the politics of language use (Ukrainian vs. Russian) in post-independence Ukraine. In this regard, anthropologist Laada Bilaniuk's book "Contested Tongues: Language Politics and Cultural Correction in Ukraine" would be worth checking out.



Paldies. I'll be off to my university's library to get a copy.

Of all of the Slavonic languages that I've studied, I'm starting to realize that it has a level of sociolinguistic complexity/baggage that not even BCMS/SC has. What may pass off as a feature of "proper Ukrainian" to one is genuinely odd/uncommon/politically incorrect to another. (and this isn't even going into the transitional Russo-Ukrainian (or Ukraino-Russian) Surzhyk which arouses strong feelings because of it not being standard yet also being interpreted by some of its users as "proper" Ukrainian by its not being strongly Polonized. For me it's a fascinating mess.

For example, one of my classmates has ancestors from Poland and western Ukraine and she tends to pronounce the final -ів as if it were written in English as -iw. I've learned to do the same based on what I get from the audio of TY Ukrainian. However another student noticed our pronunciation and asked the teacher why the two of us were pronouncing in that way even though the transliteration of -ів to English is -iv with the pronunciation adhering to this transliteration. The teacher explained it as variation within the language and that pronouncing it either way was correct, yet this difference in pronunciation has come to be interpreted by some observers as markers of a kind of cultural allegiance rooted in phonological history. In general, those who pronounce -ів as -iw tended to be from western Ukraine or influenced by Polish or even Slovak (tacitly non-Russian), while those who pronounce -ів as -iv tended to be from central or eastern Ukraine (tacitly Russian). This has support from comparative linguistics because Polish has that English "w" sound in ł while Slovaks typically pronounce what's expressed visually as final v as very close to that English "w". Russian on the other hand does not have the "w" sound. As such, the people who spent time outside the western part had little to no exposure to that "w" sound and proceeded without it.

Then of course there are the forms which aren't in the standard. The Ukrainian diaspora consists largely of people from what was then Austria-Hungary which also included quite a lot of Poles. Many of the words and structures used by them are more reminiscent of what's typical of Polish or Slovak than of Eastern Slavonic (read: usually resembles more of the equivalent in Russian). Using them could be then indicative of your family's history, the background of your teachers or even the nature of your "allegiance" or closeness to the current nation-state.

e.g.

"come on! (let's go!)"
Xодьме! (Cf. Polish Chodźmy!, Czech, Slovak: Choďme!) versus Xодiмo! (standard version with characteristic non-Western Slavonic ending for 1st person plural i.e. -iмo. In some instances, the peculiarly Eastern Slavonic давай(те)! which is a Turko-Mongol calque can also be used in this situation)

"My name is Chung ~ "I'm named/called Chung"
Hазиваюся Chung (cf. Polish Nazywam się Chung) versus Мене звyть Chung (standard "Eastern Slavonic" version cf. Меня зовут Chung (Russian))

______



Edited by Chung on 26 October 2012 at 8:31pm

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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5563 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 194 of 541
29 October 2012 at 5:15am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I have completed Chapter 21 of "Kuulostaa hyvältä". The chapter's dialogue was set in the Stone Church (Temppeliaukion kirkko) with Jutta and Anssi attending a Christmas concert. The chapter introduced a use for the 2nd infinitive in a temporal construction that links simultaneous actions, using the ablative and translative with clock time and expressing a change of state with tulla "to come".

***

POLISH

I finished Chapter 1 of "Polish in 4 weeks - II". The main topics for grammar were the genitive plural and verbs whose predicates take instrumental.

***

UKRAINIAN

I completed Unit 7 of "Teach Yourself Ukrainian". The chapter's dialogues introduced the locative, and a formal introduction to differentiating verbs by aspect. I also completed the homework for my class which dealt with на and в/у governing accusative and knowing which preposition to use depending on the destination.

***

OTHER LANGUAGES

I've finished sections in draft describing the past tenses in indicative and possession in the five Uralic languages, and man, it was a lot more time-consuming than I thought. I spent several hours reading about the past tense and then putting down what I found in a comprehensible way for a non-specialist. God, it's complicated for 4 out of the 5 languages on which I'm focusing because of the distinct conjugations required for negation on account of the negation verb and Meadow Mari was the most taxing for me to grasp overall involving quite a lot of digging in my textbook and an older reference manual issued for linguists (i.e. no Cyrillic but instead in some specialist's transcription) in Finnish. It has 6 past tenses, 3 of which seem to me to be on the border of indicative and something like "renarrative" in that they describe past events that are known to the speaker through indirect experience or external recounting. However these actions are generally concluded by the speaker to be true and thus are counted in the indicative (i.e. the set of tenses for facts as opposed to wishes or events whose veracity the speaker strongly doubts).

For the section on possession I created several simple model sentences in Estonian, Finnish, Northern Saami, Meadow Mari and Hungarian to illustrate the diversity with which possession may be expressed - it's not as simple as one may think on the assumption that the agglutinative tendency of Uralic languages must make the whole matter simpler to grasp than possession in languages that have fusional tendencies.

I'd be most interested and grateful if any of the native speakers of Estonian, Finnish or Hungarian on the board could verify the following sentences' integrity. They seem fine to me but I'm not fluent in or a native speaker of any of these languages. If anyone knowing Meadow Mari or Northern Saami could look them over, that'd be fantastic, but I'm not holding my breath for those two. The lone native speaker of Northern Saami on the forum hasn't logged in in about two and half years and I can't find anyone on the list who studies or has studied Mari apart from myself.

“My book is at home” / “I lost my book” / “My books are at home” / “I lost my books”

“[NAME]’s book is at home” / “I lost [NAME]’s book” / “[NAME]’s books are at home” / “I lost [NAME]’s books”

ESTONIAN
Minu raamat on kodus. / Kaotasin minu raamatu. / Minu raamatud on kodus. / Kaotasin minu raamatud.

Jaani raamat on kodus. / Kaotasin Jaani raamatu. / Jaani raamatud on kodus. / Kaotasin Jaani raamatud.

FINNISH
(Minun) kirjani on kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani. / (Minun) kirjani ovat kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani.

(Colloquial version of the preceding four sentences)
M(in)un kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjan. / M(in)un kirjat on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjat.

Janin kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirja. / Janin kirjat ovat kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirjat.

“Today Satu is at home by herself.”
Tänään Satu on kotona itsekseen.

“Yesterday she stayed overnight at Jani’s place. Tomorrow she’ll stay overnight at my place.”
Eilen hän yöpyi Janin luona. Huomenna hän yöpyy minun luonani.

NORTHERN SAAMI
Mu girji lea ruovttus. / Mun láhppen mu girjji. / Mu girjjit leat ruovttus. / Mun láhppen mu girjjiid.

Hánssa girji lea ruvottus. / Mun láhppen Hánssa girjji. / Hánssa girjjit leat ruovttus. / Mun láhppen Hánssa girjjiid.

“Hánsa bought (for) himself a new snowmobile.”
Hánsa osttii alccesis ođđa skohtera.

“They know each other”
Soai dovdaba goabbat guoimmiska.

MEADOW MARI
(Мыйын) книгам мöҥгыштö. / Йомдарышым (мыйын) книгамым. / (Мыйын) книгам-влак мöҥгыштö. / Йомдарышым (мыйын) книгам-влакым.

Иванын книгаже мöҥгыштö. / Йомдарышым Иванын книгажым. / Иванын книгаже-влак мöҥгыштö. / Йомдарышым Иванын книгаже-влакым.

“He/she must sell the house.”
Пöртым ужалашыже верештеш.

“What will you bring? – I’ll bring thе book [which we know about or have already talked about]”
Мом кондет? – Книгамже кондем.

HUNGARIAN
A(z én) könyvem otthon van. / Elvesztettem a(z én) könyvemet / A(z én) könyveim otthon vannak. / Elvesztettem a(z én) könyveimet.

János könyve otthon van. / János könyvét vesztettem el. / János könyvei otthon vannak. / János könyveit vesztettem el.

“János’ book is at home” / “János’ books are at home”
Jánosnak a könyve otthon van. / Jánosnak a könyvei otthon vannak.

“Whose book is this?”
Kinek a könyve ez?

“My new computer is here on the small table. Yours is over there on the big table. – I like yours more than mine.”
Az új számítógépem itt a kis asztalon van. A tied ott a nagy asztalon van. - Szeretem jobban a tiedet mint az enyémet.

“Whose computer is this? – János’ / Mine.”
Kié ez a számítógép? - Jánosé. / Az enyém.

“In János’ view this is important. What do you think? – In our view this isn’t important at all.”
János szerint ez fontos. Mit gondoltok? – Szerintünk ez egyáltalán nem fontos.

“When did he leave? I must leave too.”
Mikor ment el? El kell mennem is.

---

“My grandfather possesses / owns a large house”

ESTONIAN: Minu vanaisa omab suure maja.
FINNISH: Isoisäni omistaa suuren talon.
HUNGARIAN: A nagyapám nagy házat birtokol.
______


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maxval
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Bulgaria
maxval.co.nr
Joined 3480 days ago

852 posts - 1577 votes 
Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian
Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 195 of 541
29 October 2012 at 4:44pm | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:

Szeretem jobban a tiedet mint az enyémet.


Normally, without emphasis, it will be: "Jobban szeretem a tiedet mint az enyémet.".
Your version is correct too, however it is somewhat emphatic or poetic.

Chung wrote:

“When did he leave? I must leave too.”
Mikor ment el? El kell mennem is.


This is incorrect! It must be "el kell mennem nekem is" or "nekem is el kell mennem",
as "is" is always after the world which it relates to.

Everything else is OK.

Edited by maxval on 29 October 2012 at 4:45pm

3 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5563 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 196 of 541
29 October 2012 at 5:37pm | IP Logged 
maxval wrote:
Chung wrote:

Szeretem jobban a tiedet mint az enyémet.


Normally, without emphasis, it will be: "Jobban szeretem a tiedet mint az enyémet.".
Your version is correct too, however it is somewhat emphatic or poetic.

Chung wrote:

“When did he leave? I must leave too.”
Mikor ment el? El kell mennem is.


This is incorrect! It must be "el kell mennem nekem is" or "nekem is el kell mennem",
as "is" is always after the world which it relates to.

Everything else is OK.


!תודה רבה
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bela_lugosi
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 4861 days ago

272 posts - 376 votes 
Speaks: English, Finnish*, Italian, Spanish, German, Swedish
Studies: Russian, Estonian, Smi, Latin

 
 Message 197 of 541
30 October 2012 at 2:26am | IP Logged 
Chung wrote:
FINNISH
(Minun) kirjani on kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani. / (Minun) kirjani ovat kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani.

(Colloquial version of the preceding four sentences)
M(in)un kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjan. / M(in)un kirjat on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjat.

Janin kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirja. / Janin kirjat ovat kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirjat.

“Today Satu is at home by herself.”
Tänään Satu on kotona itsekseen.

“Yesterday she stayed overnight at Jani’s place. Tomorrow she’ll stay overnight at my place.”
Eilen hän yöpyi Janin luona. Huomenna hän yöpyy minun luonani.


Good job! It's all perfect except for a silly detail: Hukkasin Janin kirjan. :)
You can also say "Tänään Satu on yksin kotona." but the way you wrote it is correct, too, so don't worry about that.

The sentences in Northern Saami seem correct to me but don't trust me on that because I'm not a native speaker. You misspelled "ruovttus" in one sentence but that's probably a typo.

Keep up the good work!

Edited by bela_lugosi on 30 October 2012 at 2:28am

2 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 5563 days ago

4228 posts - 8256 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 198 of 541
30 October 2012 at 4:18am | IP Logged 
bela_lugosi wrote:
Chung wrote:
FINNISH
(Minun) kirjani on kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani. / (Minun) kirjani ovat kotona. / Hukkasin kirjani.

(Colloquial version of the preceding four sentences)
M(in)un kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjan. / M(in)un kirjat on kotona. / Hukkasin m(in)un kirjat.

Janin kirja on kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirja. / Janin kirjat ovat kotona. / Hukkasin Janin kirjat.

“Today Satu is at home by herself.”
Tänään Satu on kotona itsekseen.

“Yesterday she stayed overnight at Jani’s place. Tomorrow she’ll stay overnight at my place.”
Eilen hän yöpyi Janin luona. Huomenna hän yöpyy minun luonani.


Good job! It's all perfect except for a silly detail: Hukkasin Janin kirjan. :)
You can also say "Tänään Satu on yksin kotona." but the way you wrote it is correct, too, so don't worry about that.

The sentences in Northern Saami seem correct to me but don't trust me on that because I'm not a native speaker. You misspelled "ruovttus" in one sentence but that's probably a typo.

Keep up the good work!


Giitu veahki ovddas, Mikko!
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bela_lugosi
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Finland
Joined 4861 days ago

272 posts - 376 votes 
Speaks: English, Finnish*, Italian, Spanish, German, Swedish
Studies: Russian, Estonian, Smi, Latin

 
 Message 199 of 541
30 October 2012 at 1:04pm | IP Logged 
Leage buorre. ;)
1 person has voted this message useful



joshkaasik
Bilingual Diglot
Groupie
United States
Joined 2919 days ago

61 posts - 66 votes 
Speaks: English*, Estonian*
Studies: Spanish, German

 
 Message 200 of 541
31 October 2012 at 5:32pm | IP Logged 


Minu raamat on kodus. / Kaotasin minu raamatu. / Minu raamatud on kodus. / Kaotasin minu raamatud.

Jaani raamat on kodus. / Kaotasin Jaani raamatu. / Jaani raamatud on kodus. / Kaotasin Jaani raamatud.


“My grandfather possesses / owns a large house”

Minu vanaisa omab suure maja.



FIrst off, I have to say I'm pretty thrilled to see someone studying Estonian! It's not very common haha. So, well
done!
In the first line of sentences about your book(s), the first and third sentences are perfect. The second and fourth
are technically not wrong, but it would be "more correct" to say kaotasin "oma" raamatu/raamatud" When the
direct or indirect object is also possessed by the subject himself (I lose my, you lose your, he loses his, etc.),
Estonian tends to use "oma" instead of "minu." It's a bit like saying "I lost "my own" book. Any time you could put
the word "own" behind the possessive in English, you'd say "oma" in Estonian. It's actually easy, since the word is
the same for everyone. My, their, your, etc., all become "oma" when it's a direct or indirect object. For example:
(Sa) kaotasid oma (not sinu) raamatu, ma kaotasin oma raamatu, ta kaotas oma raamatu, nad kaotasid oma
raamatu. Does that make sense? :)

All the sentences about Jaan's book are perfect!

The way you talked about your grandfather owning a large house would need to be changed slightly. If it's about
a specific house as a direct object, then suure would change to suurt. But there's also a more common way to say
that, which would be "My grandfather has a large house" / "Minu vanaisal on suur maja."
But, if you need to emphasize ownership, you could still say "minu vanaisa omab suurt maja."

Well done though! I'm very impressed that someone is taking on Estonian! It (and Finnish) are ridiculously difficult
for anyone outside of that language family. And Estonian specifically is just such a rare/small language that there
aren't many people who are willing to attempt it. So, very well done! Keep it up! I'd be happy to have a look at any
other Estonian questions you have!

Edited by joshkaasik on 31 October 2012 at 5:33pm



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