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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4385 days ago

4232 posts - 4070 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 401 of 541
03 December 2013 at 6:34am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I finished the second third of the exercises in Chapter 37. These exercises involved the use of certain adpositions (i.e. prepositions and postpositions) and declining several cases in the plural.



(From Kiroileva siili)

1) “Damn it!! Ғц¢ќ off!! – Oh no! The hedgehogs are fighting in the bush!”
2) “Stop it! Stop right this mom… Uh… Sorry… - Ғц¢ќïñğ perv!!”
3) “Mmm-hmm. Well. They’re not fighting…”

- kahina (kahinan, kahinaa, kahinoita) “rustle, swish; fight, scrap”
- pervo (pervon, pervoa, pervoja) “perv”
- pusikko (pusikon, pusikkoa, pusikkoja) “bush, copse, thicket”
- rapina (rapinan, rapinaa, rapinoita) “rustling; scratching”
- suhina (suhinan, suhinaa, suhinoita) “rustling; sighing; noise”
- tapella (tappelen, tappeli, tapellut) “to fight, scrap”
- tota (interjection used as a filler in a conversation)

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

POLISH

I’ve got back in the saddle with “Kiedyś wrócisz tu... część 1: Gdzie nadwiślański brzeg” and have started to study Chapter 2 whose communciative function deals with expressing disagreement. On checking my notes, I found out that I had completed Chapter 1 about a year and a half ago, as noted here, here and here. Despite the time that’s elapsed, I felt that it’d be a little counterproductive to redo the exercises in Chapter 1. For the time being I think that working in just this course will be sufficient since this seems to be the best combination of what I’m looking for at my level. Namely a good mix of authentic texts or dialogues (some of which are recorded on the CD), exercises on grammatical topics and those guided by a communicative function, in addition to some opportunities for writing and/or speaking on topics related to the content of the texts or dialogues in the chapter. For this last point, I’ll have to check in with a couple of Polish friends to see if they’ll proofread my answers since they’ll represent my take on open-ended questions.



(From Hagar Horrendalny – Sadistic.pl)

1) “In order to improve the chances for future victories, let’s analyze the course of this battle. What did we do badly today?”
2) “We lost? – OK… And besides that?”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (nominative plural, genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 2nd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

TURKISH

I’ve worked through Unit 11 of “Turkish Self-Study Course”. The main point in new grammar was using the personal suffixes in sentences corresponding to those in other languages which use “to be” as the copula” (e.g. Bu bir öğrencidir ~ Ben bir öğrenciyim “This is a student. ~ I am a student.”). This was effectively a review of what I had seen earlier in “Elementary Turkish”.

***

UKRAINIAN

I’ve continued to study Chapter 11 of “Modern Ukrainian” and completed exercises on pgs. 196-7 which focused on adverbs of location (e.g. куди “(to) where”, кудись “(to) somewhere”, денебудь “anywhere”). I’ve also finished roughly the last third of the exercises in Chapter 6 of “Beginner’s Ukrainian” with these mainly being drills for the vocative, locative singular and numbers between 100 and 1000, as well as some comprehension questions of texts. The majority of the drills being recorded in .mp3 make them suitable for me to do on my way to and from work in addition to when I’m sitting in my living room (I whisper or mutter the answer once given the cue when on the bus).



(From Vaerstrips 5 via VaerStrips | СОМХua: Справжні комікси | Колекція українських коміксів та мальованих істроій)

1) “…he says that he didn’t see it, but I said to him…”
2) (Joke generator mode: off) “Um… - Well, go on...”
3) “So on the subject, where are we going?”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

OTHER LANGUAGES

N/A
______


1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4385 days ago

4232 posts - 4070 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 402 of 541
03 December 2013 at 6:44am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From Typický severoangličan... Blog – Stanislav Šimčík)

1) “Andy, there’s a really big spider in the kitchen sink.”
2) “Steady on, darling… calm down… I’m there for you… I’ll take care of it…”
3) “Just slowly reach for your purse, give me 10 quid and I’ll take care of it.”

- drez (drezu) “sink”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 4

Dialog 1 / Dialóg 1

P: Ahoj, Jano! Jak se máš?

P: Ahoj, Jana. Ako sa máš?

“Hi Jana. How are you?”

Differences here have been covered in an earlier post.

J: Dobře. Kam jdeš?

J: Dobre. Kam ideš?

“Well. Where are you going?”

Cz: jdeš | Sk: ideš “you are going”

The pronunciation of these forms are identical but there is a greater difference than the obvious but minor orthographical one.

Several verbs of motion in Czech can be classified into pairs that are divisible into a set referring to motion on foot and another to motion by vehicle. In contrast Slovak verbs of motion do not exist in such pairs (although jazdiť “to ride; to operate, run, travel” refers to vehicular motion or motion that doesn’t come from a person’s feet).

In this sentence, the relevant verb is translated primarily as “to go”. The full conjugation in present tense is as follows in Czech and Slovak.

“to go” ~ “I go, you go, he/she/it goes, we go, you go, they go”
Cz: jít ~ já jdu, ty jdeš, on/ona/ono jde, my jdeme, vy jdete, oni/ony/ona jdou
Sk: ísť ~ ja idem, ty ideš, on/ona/ono ide, my ideme, vy idete, oni/ony idú

In addition to the differences in the infinitives and endings in the 1st person singular and 3rd person plural, the Czech verb refers to movement on foot. In Slovak, the verb refers to movement on foot or by vehicle. For movement by vehicle, Czech uses jet instead of jít

“to go” [by vehicle] ~ “I go, you go, he/she/it goes, we go, you go, they go”
Cz: jet ~ já jedu, ty jedeš, on/ona/ono jede, my jedeme, vy jedete, oni/ony/ona jedou
Sk: ísť ~ ja idem, ty ideš, on/ona/ono ide, my ideme, vy idete, oni/ony idú

This distinction in Czech is also found in Belorussian, Polish, Russian and Ukrainian. On the other hand, Slovak’s lack of differentiation in the verbs of motion in this way is also found in the Southern Slavonic languages.

P: Jdu do města. Nevíš, kde je Věra?

P: Idem do mesta. Nevieš, kde je Viera?

“I’m going to town. Do(n’t) you know where Viera is?”

Cz: nevíš | Sk: nevieš “you do not know”

The relevant pair of verbs is Cz: vedět and Sk: vedieť “to know”. The conjugation in present tense is as follows:

“I know, you know, he/she/it knows, we know, you know, they know”
Cz: já vím, ty víš, on/ona/ono ví, my víme, vy víte, oni/ony/ona vědí
Sk: ja viem, ty vieš, on/ona/ono vie, my vieme, vy viete, oni/ony vedia

Differences in the 3rd person singular and plural, in addition to the correspondence here of Czech medial -í- to Slovak medial -ie-

When negated in present tense, the conjugation is as follows.

“I do not know, you do not know, he/she/it does not know, we do not know, you do not know, they do not know”

Cz: já nevím, ty nevíš, on/ona/ono neví, my nevíme, vy nevíte, oni/ony/ona nevědí
Sk: ja neviem, ty nevieš, on/ona/ono nevie, my nevieme, vy neviete, oni/ony nevedia

J: Věra je v městě. Kupuje dárek. Potom jde na večeři k Zuzaně.

J: Viera je v Bratislave. Kupuje darček. Potom ide na večeru k Zuzke.

“Viera is in town / Bratislava. She’s buying a gift. Afterwards she’s going to Zuzana’s / Zuzka’s place for dinner.”

For some reason, the dialogue’s content diverges when it comes to the town invovled. If the first Slovak sentence here were to correspond to the Czech one, it would be Viera je v meste.

Cz: dárek | Sk: darček “gift” (dimunutive)

What I find interesting is that the difference is apparent in the dimunitives. The difference could have been removed if Naughton had chosen to use dar “gift” which is codified for both languages. On the other hand, these diminutives are suitable with their undertones of affection and friendliness which are less explicit in the neutral dar.

Cz: večeře | Sk: večera “supper”

This difference is linked to the change of the final vowel in certain feminine nouns from -a to -e. See here for the example comparing chvíle with chvíľa.

The declension in singular is as follows:

Nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental, vocative (Czech only)
Cz: večeře, večeři, večeře, večeři, večeři, večeří, večeře
Sk: večera, věceru, večere, večeri, večeri, večerou

Incidentally, večera in isolation may be interpreted as the genitive singular of večer “evening” which is valid in Czech and Slovak.

Cz: k Zuzaně | Sk: k Zuzke “to Zuzana’s / Zuzka’s home/place”

Zuzka “Susie” is a familiar or affectionate form of Zuzana “Susan” with both forms being valid in each of Czech and Slovak. However this form also indirectly reflects another difference between Czech and Slovak which straddles the phonological and morphological. For consistency’s sake, one could have used:

Cz: k Zuzaně | Sk: k Zuzane “to Susan’s home”

...or

Cz: k Zuzce | Sk: k Zuzke “to Susie’s home”

The first pair illustrates a clear spelling difference while the second pair illustrates how Czech retains a palatalization which has largely disappeared in Slovak.

In this instance, the dative and locative singular endings for feminine nouns in Czech set off a change in the preceding consonant if it arose from a Proto-Slavonic *g or *k (in Czech and Slovak, -h- is the reflex of *g while -k- is the reflex of *k). For geeks of historical Slavonic linguistics, this is part of the Second Slavonic palatalization. This change in Slovak was reversed for inflectional endings on the example of the other noun stems whose inflected forms were exempt from this change in the first place.

E.g.

“Prague is a beautiful city... What do you think of Prague?”
Cz: Praha je krásné město... Co si myslíš o Praze? (locative)
Sk: Praha je krásne mesto... Čo si myslíš o Prahe? (locative)

“Your (female) friend is sad... Why won’t you call your friend?”
Cz: Tvoje kamarádka je smutná... Proč nezavoláš svojí kamarádce? (dative)
Sk: Tvoja kamarátka je smutná ... Prečo nezavoláš svojej kamarátke? (dative)

From the learner’s point of view, the rule is that feminine nouns in Czech whose ending in nominative singular is –ha or –ka end in –ze or –ce respectively when in either dative or locative singular. This is not applicable to Slovak words whose nominative singular has the same endings as in Czech (i.e. -ha or -ka).

P: A Eva?

P: A Eva?

“And Eva?”

Identical.

J: Eva je v Brně. Je na návštěvě u kamaráda.

J: Eva je v Trnave. Je na návšteve u kamaráta.

“Eva is in Brno / Trnava. She is visiting a friend.”

The difference of Czech ending ě compared to Slovak e for locative singular has been covered previously.

Cz: kamarád | Sk: kamarát “friend”

Each form is codified for its respective standard, small as the spelling difference is.

P: Škoda.

P: Škoda.

“Too bad.”

Identical.

Edited by Chung on 03 December 2013 at 6:55am

1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4385 days ago

4232 posts - 4070 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 403 of 541
09 December 2013 at 6:10am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I finished the final third of the exercises in Chapter 37 and for the third time did the speaking drills. The exercises involved declining several cases in the plural, using adverbs pertaining to upward or downward motion (i.e. ylhäältä, ylhäällä, ylös / alhaalta, alhaalla, alas) and some comprehension questions of texts.



(From Lähtölaukaus via Betonisaappaat)

1) “Darn it, we don’t have anyone to fire the starting pistol.”
2) “Excuse me, could you give us the shot? – Of course!”
3) “Poor guys. I wonder what drove them to this.”

- lähtölaukaus (lähtölaukauksen, lähtölaukausta, lähtölaukauksia) “starting gunshot”
- miesparka (miesparan, miesparkaa, miesparkoja) “pitiful man”
- pahus (pahuksen, pahusta, pahuksia) “darn, heck, hell”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

TURKISH

I’ve worked through Unit 12 of “Turkish Self-Study Course” and finished the exercises on pgs. 64-7 of “Elementary Turkish” thus finishing Chapter 3. The main point in new grammar in the former was using the personal suffixes in sentences with the interrogative and negative particles. In the latter, I did exercises testing my grasp of the locative, personal suffixes, the derivational suffixes -lı / -li / -lu / -lü and -sız / -siz / -suz / -süz and basic greetings.

***

UKRAINIAN

I’ve continued to study Chapter 12 of “Modern Ukrainian” and completed exercises on pg. 197 which focused on adverbs of location (e.g. куди “(to) where”, кудись “(to) somewhere”, денебудь “anywhere”) but immediately got turned off by the translation exercise. I’ll resume work in the chapter in a few days – skipping that accursed translation exercise. (See here for my antipathy of translation exercises involving individual sentences. I’ve also done the exercises on pgs. 115-7 in Chapter 7 of “Beginner’s Ukrainian” with these mainly being drills for the accusative. The majority of the drills being recorded in .mp3 make them suitable for me to do on my way to and from work in addition to when I’m sitting in my living room (I whisper or mutter the answer once given the cue when on the bus).



(From З життя дерев via Огірок – переклади коміксів українською)

1) “What’s this? A tattoo? – Mom’s gonna pound you!”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

OTHER LANGUAGES

N/A
______



Edited by Chung on 09 December 2013 at 4:17pm

1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4385 days ago

4232 posts - 4070 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 404 of 541
09 December 2013 at 6:17am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From S H O O T Y - ...som Grogy)

4) “Are we going already?”
5) “Just a sec! I still need to paint myself a bit / put on a bit of makeup.”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 4

Dialog 2 / Dialóg 2

P: Co děláš? Máš chvíli čas?

P: Čo robíš? Máš chvíľu čas?

“What are you doing? Do you have a moment?”

Cz: co | Sk: čo “what”

Each form is codified for its standard and reflects a distinct reflex of the Proto-Slavonic *čьto.

Cz: dělat | Sk: robiť “to do, make”

Each word is codified for its standard, however the descriptive dictionary of standard Czech does list robiti as a dialectal and expressive form of dělat (in older forms of Czech, the infinitive ending is -ti but this has been replaced nowadays by the ending -t).

J: Uklízím byt, mezitím vařím oběd, dívám se na televizi. Potom jdu do samoobsluhy. No a tak dál.

J: Upratujem byt, medzitým varím obed, pozerám televíziu. Potom idem do samoobsluhy. A tak ďalej.

“I’m tidying up the apartment, and meanwhile I’m cooking lunch, and watching TV. Afterwards I’m going to the supermarket. And so on.”

Cz: uklízet | Sk: upratovať “to tidy up” (imperfective)

Each word is codified for its standard only. With a bit of reflection one can detect the link between the Czech verb and a related noun in Czech and Slovak per the following examples.

Cz: uklízet > uklidit “to tidy up” (imperfective > perfective)

Cz: klid | Sk: kľud “calm, tranquility”

Nevertheless, the similiarity doesn’t contradict the treatment of Czech and Slovak as different languages especially considering the different pronunciations inherent in the orthography of each of the cognate pair klid / kľud.

Cz: mezitím | Sk: medzitým “meanwhile, in the meantime”

Slovak -dz- corresponds to Czech -z- in cognates and represents a sound that is not codified in Czech.

Other examples of the contrast include:

“foreign”, “to throw”, “to confirm”, “to arrive”
Cz: cizí, házet, potvrzovat, přicházet
Sk: cudzí, hádzať, potvrdzovať, prichádzať

Cz: vařit | Sk: variť “to cook”

Difference between ř and r has been covered previously.

Cz: oběd | Sk: obed “lunch”

Different spelling reflects different pronunciation. Compare oběd with obed.

Cz: dívat se | Sk: pozerať “to look at, watch”

The Slovak counterpart to Czech dívat se is dívat sa and among other meanings is synonymous with pozerať. On the other hand, Proto-Slavonic *zьrěti “to see” lives on primarily in non-verbal forms in modern Czech. There are the derivatives zřetel “regard” and zřejmě “apparently; evidently” in addition to the archaic zřít “to see”. Modern Slovak on the other hand shows more reflexes of Proto-Slavonic *zьrěti “to see” and not just derivatives that correspond to the Czech examples above (e.g. zreteľ and zrejme respectively) but also in verbs zrieť “to see”, pozerať (sa) > pozrieť (sa) “to look at, watch”.

In my experience when expressing something like the English “Chung, look!” (as in “Chung, look here!” or “Chung, look at this!”), I’ve always encountered Czechs using Chung, podívej se! (in addition to the colloquial Chung, koukni se!) while Slovaks have used Chung, pozri sa! (in addition to the colloquial (and vaguely Czech-like?) Chung, kukni sa!). These occur notwithstanding that it’d be grammatical (if not infrequent) for a Slovak to use podívaj sa! or for a Czech to use pozři se! despite its rarity nowadays. Indeed, the dictionary of standard Czech marks all forms (including prefixed ones) with the verb zřít (zříti in older forms of Czech) as obsolete, archaic or literary.

Cz: televize | Sk: televízia “television”

Despite being part of an internationalism, each language has a different adaptation of the term, in addition to the Czech term here is another example of a “soft” feminine noun which has a declensional pattern that’s absent in Slovak. See here for analysis involving chvíle / chvíľa.

Cz: dál | Sk: daľej “beyond, further, next”

These are codified for each language only. Note also the lengthened a (i.e. á) in the Czech form which is absent in the Slovak counterpart.

P: Ty nejdeš do práce? Pracuješ, ne?

P: Ty nejdeš do roboty? Pracuješ, nie?

“You’re not going to work? You work, no?”

Cz: práce | Sk: robota “work; workplace”

Despite the use of different words, robota is a dated or historical synonym for práce according to the dictionary of standard Czech. Using it in the Czech sentence here wouldn’t be ungrammatical although it would be unusual or even mildly jarring to Czech native speakers today. The descriptive dictionaries of Slovak do not mark robota in the same way, and so robota and práca* are effectively synonyms when describing one’s workplace or job

(*N.B. because of the change involving “soft” feminine nouns in Czech (see here for analysis involving chvíle / chvíľa), the Slovak cognate of Czech práce is práca).

J: Ne. Už rok nepracuju. Jsem studentka. Studuju v Praze medicínu. Teď máme prázdniny, víš.

J: Nie. Už mesiac nepracujem. Som ešte stále študentka. Študujem v Prahe medicínu. Teraz máme prázdniny, vieš.

“No. For a year / month I haven’t been working. I’m (still) a student. I’m studying medicine in Prague. Now we have holidays, you know.

I’m not sure why the author added the adverbial phrase ešte stále “still” in the Slovak version but left it out in the Czech version. For the record, the Czech parallel is ještě stále. In any case, its presence or absence wouldn’t hinder comprehension or detract from the sentence’s meaning.

Cz: rok | Sk: rok “year”
Cz: měsíc | Sk: mesiac “month”

For some reason, course author used the term for “year” in the Czech dialogue, but “month” in the Slovak one.

In any case, I’ve listed the Czech and Slovak terms for “month” and “year” to show not only the difference between the Czech and Slovak words for “month” but also to show a declensional difference in the term for “year” that’s not apparent in the original sentence.

“year” (singular) (nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental)
Cz: rok, rok, roka / roku, roku, roku / roce, rokem
Sk: rok, rok, roka / roku, roku, roku, rokom

The locative singular in the Czech term can occur with either ending whereas that for Slovak can occur with only one ending. There is also a difference between the languages in the form for instrumental singular.

Cz: studentka | Sk: študentka “(female) student”

Different orthography reflects different pronunciation, subtle as this is.

Cz: studovat | Sk: študovať “to study”

Different orthography reflects different pronunciation, subtle as this is.

Cz: teď | Sk: teraz “now”

Each word is codified for its respective language. As if to emphasize the distinctiveness of the terms, the dictionary of standard Czech marks teraz as the Slovak counterpart of teď and nyní – both of which are in turn missing in the descriptive dictionaries of Slovak from 1959-1968 and 2004.

P: Já taky studuju. Studuju v Brně ekonomii.

P: Aj ja študujem. Študujem v Bratislave ekonómiu.

“I also am studying. I study economics in Brno / Bratislava.

Cz: ekonomie | Sk: ekonómia “economy; economics”

In addition to the spelling difference, the Czech term here is another example of a “soft” feminine noun which has a declensional pattern that’s absent in Slovak. See here for analysis involving chvíle / chvíľa.

Cz: v Brně | Sk: v Brne “in Brno” (city in Czech Republic)
Cz: v Bratislavě | Sk: v Bratislave “in Bratislava” (capital of Slovakia)

It was probably for the sake of geographical consistency that the Czech and Slovak dialogues use different names for cities. For the sake of comparison, I’ve put down the Czech and Slovak equivalents of the phrases “in Brno” and “in Bratislava”. Despite the spelling difference each pair would be pronounced identically in Czech and Slovak.
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renaissancemedi
Bilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Greece
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941 posts - 366 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2
Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 405 of 541
09 December 2013 at 8:50am | IP Logged 
A technical question. How do you link exactly to the post you want, instead of the entire page?

Great log btw.



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4385 days ago

4232 posts - 4070 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 406 of 541
09 December 2013 at 4:07pm | IP Logged 
renaissancemedi wrote:
A technical question. How do you link exactly to the post you want, instead of the entire page?


In general, a URL of a thread on HTLAL ends with &TPN=x (x being the page number of the thread. On my log as of this moment, we're on the 51st page which explains the URL ending in TPN=51. When you want to link to a message found on a certain page of a thread, put the message's number preceded by #. For example your post directly above has the number 472470. Here's the link to that message. Put your mouse cursor over this link and look at the URL in the small pop-up line on the bottom of your browser.

You can find the message's number by moving the mouse cursor right over the (quote) button in the message itself. You should see a small pop-up on the bottom right of your browser which gives the URL including the message's number in the format M=Q&PID=472470

PID means "post ID".

renaissancemedi wrote:
Great log btw.


Ευχαριστώ
4 persons have voted this message useful



renaissancemedi
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Greece
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941 posts - 366 votes 
Speaks: Greek*, Ancient Greek*, EnglishC2
Studies: French, Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 407 of 541
09 December 2013 at 4:09pm | IP Logged 
Thank you!



Chung
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Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 408 of 541
20 December 2013 at 7:53am | IP Logged 
NORTHERN SAAMI

I finished Unit 11 of Davvin 3 whose main topic in grammar was the object of ballat “to fear” being in locative and the the verb šaddat having an earlier meaning of “to become” in addition to the current typical meaning of “must; to result”. Here is my understanding of the chapter’s “new” main point (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) The object of ballat takes the locative..

Mun balan beatnagis. “I’m afraid of the dog”

Formally this governance reminds me of how other languages that I’ve encountered treat the object of the verb meaning “to fear” or “be afraid”. In Northern Saami, locative typically implies the declined element’s position relative to the other elements in the sentence (e.g. Mun lean dálus “I am in the house”) or motion away from the declined element (e.g. Mun boađán dálus “I am coming from the house”). These implications can also be figurative as illustrated by the possessive construction which places the possessor in the locative (e.g. Mus lea beana. “I have a dog” ~ “At/On/In/From me there is a dog”). In this example, mun balan beatnagis is semantically similar to “I am afraid of the dog” with “of” suggesting motion or sentiment originating from the object that is feared.

I’m reminded of semantic parallels in some of the languages that I’ve encountered.

“I’m afraid of war, I fear war
- BCMS/SC: Bojim se rata (rata is genitive singular of rat “war” which likely reflect the genitive assuming a partitive sense i.e. ‘part of sg’ cf. nekoliko ratova “several (of) wars”)
- Finnish: Pelkään sotaa (sotaa is partitive singular of sota “war” which as the name suggests implies being ‘part of sg’)
- Hungarian: Félek a háborútól (háborútól is the ablative singular of háború “war” with the suffix -tól meaning roughly “away from”)
- Slovak: Bojím sa vojny (vojny is genitive singular of vojna “war” which likely reflects the genitive assuming a partitive sense i.e. ‘part of sg’ cf. niekoľko vojen “several (of) wars”)
- Turkish: Ben savaştan korkarım (savaştan is ablative singular of savaş “war” with the suffix -tan meaning roughly “away from”)
- Ukrainian: Я боюся війни (війни is genitive singular of війна “war” which likely reflects the genitive assuming a partitive sense i.e. ‘part of sg’ cf. декілька війн “several (of) wars”)

Vocabulary of Unit 11

álás – “naked”
ballat – “to be afraid”
biellu (biel’lu) – “clock”
bivastuvvat – “to sweat”
čađa – “through”
dávjá – “often”
goikat – “to dry”
goike (attr.), goikkis (pred.) – “dry”
gostege – “anywhere”
gumpe – “wolf”
illlá – “barely, hardly”
lossa (attr.), lossat (pred.) – “heavy”
luoikkas – “on loan”
mastege – “from any”
meahcci – “forest, uninhabited area”
mihkkege – “any”
nealgi – “hunger”
njuoskat – “to become wet”
oktage – “none”
okto – “alone”
oppa – “at least; even; so much as”
rátnu – (traditional Finnish decoration)
reaŋga – “hired hand, paid assistant”
siivu – “road conditions; weather”
váile – “lacking, missing”

***

POLISH

I’ve completed the exercises in Chapter 2 of “Kiedyś wrócisz tu... część 1: Gdzie nadwiślański brzeg” involving phrases used to express disagreement or protest, as well as questions and exercises tied to a text about fairy tales. I still need to do an exercise where I am to write a short piece or talk briefly about themes expressed in that text, besides the drills on grammar in the last section of the chapter’s exercises.



(From Garfields.yoyo.pl – Komiksy Garfielda po polsku)

4) “Look at you!”
5) “What a smile that is!”
6) “It’s nice to see you in a good mood.”
7) “I SAT DOWN ON A MOUSETRAP!”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (nominative plural, genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 2nd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

TURKISH

I’ve worked through Unit 13 of “Turkish Self-Study Course” and started reading the notes on grammar in Chapter 4 of “Elementary Turkish”. The main points in new grammar in the former were using the postpositions içinde “in(side)”, üstünde “on” and yaninda “near”, and the cardinal numerals up to 100. By coincidence the notes on grammar in the latter dealt with the genitive among other topics making my perusal of the chapter useful. Without saying so, the aforementioned postpositions require that the preceding noun be put in the genitive suffix. I guess that the authors of “Turkish Self-Study Course” wanted to keep the focus on the postpositions and not be compelled to give a full introduction to the genitive suffix which is canonically associated with possession.

As I was working through this chapter I couldn’t help but think a bit more about these structures and do a little bit of comparison.

The first item that drew my attention was that the locative suffix –da/–de basically covers what is meant when using içinde “in(side)” and üstünde “on” in most instances.

E.g.

Köpek arabada. / Köpek arabanın içinde. “The dog is in the car.”
Köpek arabada. / Köpek arabanın üstünde. “The dog is on the car.”

According to the authors, context makes it sufficiently clear whether we’re inside something or on its surface when the noun bears the locative suffix. The postposition though would be necessary for clarity the locative suffix alone leads to genuine ambiguity.

The second item is that this construction of a postposition governing genitive is reminiscent of what is found in some Uralic languages with Finnish being particularly obvious – even the genitive suffixes have a vague similarity with the –n (it is interesting that the Old Turkic suffix for genitive is –ŋ (from Proto-Altaic *-ńV) while Proto-Uralic’s genitive suffix is *-n)

“The box is large.”
Fi: Laatikko on iso.
Tk: Kutu büyüktür.

“There’s a dog in(side) the box.”
Fi: Laatikon sisällä on tietokone.
Tk: Kutunun içinde bilgisayar var.

The third item that came to mind was the vague similarity between Turkish consonant alternations at the end of polysyllabic nouns caused by the addition of case suffixes and consonant gradation in Uralic languages – again with Finnish examples being the most obvious.

“The bed is large.”
Fi: Sänky on iso.
Tk: Yatak büyüktür.

“There’s a dog near the bed.”
Fi: ngyn lähellä on koira.
Tk: Yatağın yanında köpek var.

Reanalyzing these sentences further with their genitive governance makes me think that what’s being said is loosely translateable as “Box’s interior-[some kind of locational suffix] is computer” and “Bed’s vicinity-[some kind of locational suffix] is dog”.

However, I’m very uncertain about there being some deeper connection linking these phenomena or descent from a common ancestral language - the biggest factor for me is that consonant gradation in Uralic* affects nouns and verbs while in Turkish the alternations are relevant for polysyllablic nouns. (*Even within Uralic languages, the set of consonants affected varies. On one hand consonant gradation in Finnish affects k, p, and t and some clusters with these consonants when they begin the stem’s last syllable. On the other hand the consonant gradation of Northern Saami affects almost all consonants and consonant clusters.)

I admit that from a certain point of view, there’s nothing particularly extraordinary in the preceding since I’ve been seeing adpositions (i.e. prepositions and postpositions) governing something other than nominative starting from English (limited as it is there to personal pronouns) – that is to say long before I started studying Finnish let alone Turkish.

“You are near the house.”
Lithuanian: Tu esi arti namo. (namo is genitive singular of namas “house”)
Hungarian: A házhoz közel vagy. (házhoz is allative singular of ház “house”)
Ukrainian: Ти — біля хати. (хати is genitive singular of хатa “house”)

***

UKRAINIAN

I’ve continued to study Chapter 12 of “Modern Ukrainian” and completed exercises on pgs. 197-8 which covered certain adverbs of location, the instrumental, and verbs indicating ability (e.g. знати “to know”, могти “to be able to”, уміти “to know how to”).



(From Зай та Друзі)

1) “Just think. How imperfect I am.” (literally: How I am not ideal.)
2) “None of us is perfect. We’re just living creatures.” (literally: We all are not ideal. We’re just only living creatures)
3) “Well, no, you didn’t understand. I have three tails.”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

OTHER LANGUAGES

N/A
______





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