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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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Chung
Diglot
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Joined 4287 days ago

4232 posts - 4063 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 417 of 541
28 December 2013 at 4:16pm | IP Logged 
Thank you.

I have little to offer when it comes to techniques (see Iversen's or emk's logs for those), but I just can't help myself from posting about the linguistic characteristics that I encounter or any parallels among my target languages.



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4287 days ago

4232 posts - 4063 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 418 of 541
30 December 2013 at 7:16am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I started working on Chapter 39 whose main point of new grammar focus is the translative case. This chapter also provides a review of the direct object, and so far the chapter’s exercises that I’ve done were nothing but drills on this topic.



(From VR via Supermukula)

1) “Dear travellers, the time is 16:00. We are just leaving Metsälä.”
2) “The time is 17:00 and we are… still in Metsälä.”
3) “[Finnish] State Railways.”

Convention for unfamiliar vocabulary in the comic strip (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

yhä “still”

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular, partitive singular, partitive plural)
VERBS: 1st infinitive (1st person singular present tense, 3rd person singular past simple tense, active past participle)
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

NORTHERN SAAMI

I finished Unit 12 of Davvin 3 whose main topic in grammar was the declension of the “contracting” nouns such as boazu “reindeer” and olmmoš “person”. Here is my understanding of the chapter’s “new” main point (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) The declension of the “contracting” nouns differs from that of nouns whose patterns align to a distinction of whether the stem has an even or odd number of syllables.. Using the example of boazu the declensional pattern is as follows:

Singular: nominative, accusative/genitive, illative, locative, comitative, essive
- boazu, bohcco, bohccui, bohccos, bohccuin, boazun

Plural: nominative, accusative/genitive, illative, locative, comitative, essive
- bohccot, bohccuid, bohccuide, bohccuin, bohccuiguin, boazun

I suppose that it’s called “contracting” in that the inflectional stem found in the accusative/genitive singular has one fewer syllable than the basic form in the nominative singular.

Vocabulary of Unit 12

ávki – “benefit, gain”
boagustit – “to laugh”
čieskat – “to chop marrow bone”
dálolaš – “homeowner”
heajos (attr.), headju – “bad, poor quality, weak”
geafes (attr.), geafi (pred.) – “poor”
goabbá – “which”
guohtun – “pasture conditions”
maŋis – “behind”
málestit – “to prepare a meal”
mearka – “owner’s tag attached to a reindeer’s ear”
nuorttas – “to the east, eastwards”
oarjjás – “to the west, westwards”
rikkes (attr.), rikkis (pred.) – “rich”
siida – “foraging area for reindeer”

---

I have now finished “Davvin 3” and for now this marks a break in my studies of Northern Saami. My sentiment toward the language and the “Davvin” series in large part can be gleaned even now from my comments dating from when I finished “Davvin 2”. At this point, I have filled some of the gaps in my understanding of the grammar, namely the formation of the simple past tense for all verbs and subjects and the declension of “contracting” nouns such as boazo “reindeer” and olmmoš “person”.

***

POLISH

I’ve finished some communicative exercises in Chapter 2 of “Kiedyś wrócisz tu... część 1: Gdzie nadwiślański brzeg” where I wrote down my opinion or comments on questions concerning fairy tales and grandparents. I also started the chapter’s section of exercises for declining państwo “state; married couple” and family names. The chapter goes over several topics in grammar, but to keep things manageable, I studied just the first topic and did the corresponding drills.



(From Zaczytani via Qmandorkowe Bazgroły)

1) “Darling, it’s already late. Shall we call it a night? – In a moment.”
2) (An hour later…) “How about now? – Wait. I’m curious if Jenna will escape the murderer!”
3) “Woman, do you ever go to sleep??? How do you ever function? – It seems that I’m a cyborg.”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (nominative plural, genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (1st person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 2nd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

***

Boldog új évet! / Szczęśliwego Nowego Roku! / Lihkolaš ođđa jagi! / Šťastný nový rok! / Hyvää uttaa vuotta! / Mutlu yıllar! / З новим роком!
______


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Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4287 days ago

4232 posts - 4063 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 419 of 541
30 December 2013 at 7:23am | IP Logged 
SLOVAK

As noted here, I’m compiling a list of verbs that use prefixes in derivation or to indicate changes in aspect.



(From S H O O T Y - ...som Grogy)

3) “Those SMSes cost quite a lot.”
4) “We could also talk normally.”

- ísť do peňazí (ide do peňazí) “to be expensive”

Convention for vocabulary in the comic strip that's unfamiliar to me (i.e. needed to consult a dictionary)

NOUNS & ADJECTIVES: nominative singular (genitive singular)
VERBS (where applicable using convention of imperfective > perfective): infinitive (3rd person singular present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb], 3rd person plural present tense [imperfective verb] / future tense [perfective verb])
ADVERBS & INTERJECTIONS: no extra information given

---

See here for the rationale for and information about this exercise in comparing Czech and Slovak.

The Czech sentences are red while the Slovak ones are blue. (…) denotes text that has been omitted because its subject matter does not tie back to the common translation thus making it ineligible for grammatical or lexical comparison.

Unit 4

Dialog 5 / Dialóg 5

J: Kam jdete, pane Novák?

J: Kam idete, pán Botto?

“Where are you going Mr. Novák / Botto?”

Differences between jdete (< jít) and idete (< ísť) are examined here in Dobře. Kam jdeš? versus Dobre. Kam ideš?.

The difference between pane and pán are examined here in mladý pane versus mladý pán.


N: Jdu do parku, když je tak pěkně. A co děláte vy? Píšete nečo? Vidím, že máte papír a pero.

B: Idem do parku, keď je tak pekne. A vy, čo robíte? Píšete niečo? Vidím, že máte papier a pero.

“I’m going to the park since it’s so nice. And what are you doing? Are you writing something? I see that you have paper and a pen.”

Differences between jdu (< jit) and idem (< ísť) are examined here in Dobře. Kam jdeš? versus Dobre. Kam ideš?.

Cz: když | Sk: keď “since; if, when”

Uncontroversial difference with each conjunction codified only in its own language.

Cz: | Sk: pekne “nicely; prettily”

Compare pronunciation of Czech pěkně with Slovak pekne. Difference in spelling reflects difference in pronunciation, subtle as it is.

The difference between co dělate (< dělat) and čo robíte (< robiť) are examined here in Co děláš? versus Čo robíš?.

Cz: něco | Sk: niečo “something”

Uncontroversial difference with each form codified only in its own language.

Cz: papír | Sk: papier “paper”

Uncontroversial difference with each form codified only in its own language. This seems related to a certain tendency of Czech í to correspond to Slovak ie among other diphthongs or vowels (cf. náměstí ~ námestie “square”, rozumím ~ rozumiem “I understand”)

See also here taking example of Czech štěstí versus Slovak šťastie.


J: Jdu do zahrady. Píšu dopis. Moje přítelkyně píše, že je jí smutno. Chci jí napsat pár slov.

J: Idem do záhrady. Píšem list. Moja priateľka píše, že je smutná, súrne potrebuje odo mňa pár slov.

“I’m going to the garden. I’m writing a letter. My (girl)friend is writing that she is sad . I want to write to her a few words. / , she urgently needs a few words from me.

Differences between jdu (< jit) and idem (< ísť) are examined here in Dobře. Kam jdeš? versus Dobre. Kam ideš?.

Cz: zahrada | Sk: záhrada “garden”

Uncontroversial difference with each form codified only in its own language, subtle as it is (i.e. first syllable in Czech word is short, Slovak counterpart’s is long).

Cz: píšu | Sk: píšem “I am writing”

The difference in the verb endings has been touched on in several of the previous comparisons (e.g. pracuju versus pracujem and it may be helpful to observe that over time, the marker for the first person singular in present tense has become –m in Slovak. On the other hand, the marker for the same in Czech can be –i or –u in addition to –m, depending on the verb.

See here for examples comparing several verbs in Czech, Slovak and BCMS/SC which shows an almost identical development as Slovak's.

Difference between dopis and list has been covered here here.

Cz: přítelkyně | Sk: priateľka “female friend; girlfriend”

(Cf. Cz: přítel | Sk: priateľ “male friend; boyfriend”)

This pair shows another example of Czech -í-; this time it corresponds to the Slovak -ia-, thus showing the complexity in mapping Czech í with Slovak vowels or diphthongs in cognates.

When it comes to derivational endings, this pair illustrates two more differences that while not hindering mutual intelligibility do strengthen the case for Czech and Slovak to be treated as distinct languages.

The Czech agent suffix –tel corresponds to the Slovak –teľ. The difference as suggested by the spelling is that the final –l in Slovak is palatalized while in Czech it is not.

As it concerns derivational endings indicating feminine subjects, the Czech employs –(k)a and –(k)yně in addition to others with the Slovak counterparts here being –(k)a and –(k)yňa respectively. Noteworthy is the formal spelling difference between the latter pair, and that the cognates’ formal non-congruence in the endings is at odds with the tendency for Czech and Slovak cognates for these types of nouns to share the same suffix (etymologically speaking).

E.g.
“owner, slave, advisor, student, teacher, artist” (female)
Cz: majitelka, otrokyně, poradkyně, studentka, učitelka, umělkyně
Sk: majiteľka, otrokyňa, poradkyňa, študentka, učiteľka, umelkyňa

Cz: moje | Sk: moja “my” (feminine singular, nominative)

The Czech example is from the colloquial register, and shows again how Czech and Slovak have come to be regarded as different languages.
For comparison’s sake, here is the full declension of “my” for a female possessor in both registers of Czech, and Slovak.

Possessing one object, possessive pronoun in nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental

Standard Cz: má, mou, , , , mou
Colloquial Cz: moje, moji, mojí, mojí, mojí, mojí
Sk: moja, moju, mojej, mojej, mojej, mojou

Possessing more than object, possessive pronoun in nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental

Standard Cz: mé, , mých, mým, mých, mými
Colloquial Cz: moje, moje, mých, mým, mých, mými
Sk: moje, moje, mojim, mojich, mojich, mojimi

For a learner, the pattern in Czech is on one hand more complicated than in Slovak because of the need to juggle both colloquial and formal patterns, but arguably slightly less complicated that in Slovak because of the degree to which endings are “reused” in Czech (e.g. colloquial Czech mojí in isolation can refer to the genitive, dative, locative or instrumental singular. In Slovak these functions correspond to mojej, mojej, mojej, mojou.

This complexity caused a few problems for me at first with my background in Polish and Slovak because I had a habit in the beginning of interpreting Colloquial Czech’s moje either as a neuter possessor because of the identity with the neuter moje in Standard Czech, Polish and Slovak or that the possessor, regardless of gender, had several objects other than in masculine animate based on what’s used in Polish and Slovak.

Cz: je jí smutno | Sk: je smutná “she is sad”

On the surface the different structures might be seized upon as clear examples showing a difference between Czech and Slovak. Czech phrase is translatable as “is to-her sadly” while the Slovak one is close to the English “she is sad” with smutná being an adjective.

On the other hand, the only real difference between the phrases is found in the dative of ona “she”. In Czech this is while in Slovak it is jej. It would be equally grammatical to say je jej smutno in Slovak, as much as it would be in Czech to say je smutná.

Cz: Chci jí napsat pár slov. “I want to write a few words to her.”
Sk: …súrne potrebuje odo mňa pár slov. “…she urgently needs a few words from me.”

The author, James Naughton, did not make the content in the last part of Jana’s speech identical but I have put down translations for comparison’s sake, underlining them to show that these are my attempts.

“I want to write a few words to her.”
Cz: Chci jí napsat pár slov.
Sk: Chcem jej napísať pár slov.

“…she urgently needs a few words from me.”
Cz: …naléhavě potřebuje ode mne pár slov.
Sk: …súrne potrebuje odo mňa pár slov.

Because I translated them myself, I’ll keep the comments here short.
- Notice the difference in how Czech has a different ending for the 1st person singular compared to Slovak (cf. píšu ~ píšem and difference between Czech napsat and Slovak napísať.
- In addition, there is no formal equivalent in Czech for súrny or its adverb súrne. In addition to naléhavě, a Czech could translate Slovak súrne using spěšně.
- The difference between potřebuje and potrebuje has been covered here on the example of dobře and dobre.
- Certain prepositions add a euphonic vowel when immediately preceding a consonant cluster. This euphonic vowel is –e in Czech and –o in Slovak.
- Lastly the declensional patterns for the 1st person singular pronoun diverge as shown here in comparing and ja.


N: Jak se jmenuje vaše přítelkyně?

N: Ako sa volá vaša priateľka?

“What’s your friend’s name?”

Cz: jmenovat se | Sk: volať sa “to be called, to be named”

Each word is codified for its language, and unknown in the other. However, volati se is a dialectal form of standard jmenovat se while the Slovak analogue of jmenovat se is menovať sa* which is marked as a literary form of the usual volať sa.

*Note the lack of initial j which under certain conditions occurs in Czech but not in the Slovak cognate where applicable. Cf. jsme “(we) are”, jméno “name”, jistý “sure”versus Slovak sme, meno, istý respectively.

Cz: vaše | Sk: vaša “your” (singular formal or plural possessor in nominative when possessing a grammatically feminine object)

This pair gives another example of the change in Czech that gave rise to feminine adjectives and nouns ending in –e rather than –a. Slovak and the other Slavonic languages did not undergo this change. See here for more discussion using chvíle and chvíľa as the example.


J: Jmenuje se Eva. Je to milé děvče. Mám ji moc ráda.

J: Volá sa Eva. Je to milé dievča. Mám ju veľmi ráda.

“Her name is Eva. She’s a kind girl. I like her very much.”

Cz: děvče | Sk: dievča “girl”

Each word is codified for its own language. Despite its apperance, the Slovak form is neuter (not feminine as the word’s meaning and final –a may suggest).

What’s interesting is that despite the word being grammatically neuter with the expected adjectival agreement (i.e. milé instead of milá), the next sentence reflects Eva’s natural gender in that the object pronoun is the feminine one (i.e. Czech ji and Slovak ju) rather than the neuter one if grammatical gender is strictly followed. (i.e. Czech je and Slovak ho)

Cz: moc | Sk: veľmi “very”

Moc occurs in formal and informal registers of Czech. On the other hand, moc is typical of colloquial Slovak and means “a lot, many, much” rather than “very”. Incidentally, the Czech counterpart of Slovak veľmi is velmi (i.e. the difference is that its medial -l- is not palatalized as in the Slovak cognate with its -ľ-).

Cz: ji | Sk: ju “her” (accusative)

The full declension of ona “she” in Czech and Slovak is as follows:

nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, locative, instrumental
Cz: ona, ji / ni, jí / ní, jí / ní, , jí / ní
Sk: ona, ju / ňu, jej / nej, jej / nej, nej, ňou

Notice divergence between the languages in the cases other than the nominative.


N: Kde bydlí?

N: Kde býva?

“Where does she live?”

Cz: bydlet | Sk: bývať “to dwell, live”

Each verb is codified for its own language only. However, the bývati is marked in the dictionary of standard Czech as a dialectal form of standard bydlet. The root bydl- does not form any verb related to living or dwelling that I know of in Slovak, however it is related to the archaic word bydlo and its more modern version bydlisko “domicile; residence”.


J: Teď bydlí v Londýně. Studuje tam ekonomii.

J: Teraz býva v Oxforde. Študuje tam ekonómiu.

“Now she lives in London / Oxford. She’s studying economics there.”

For some reason, James Naughton used different cities in England even though Jana’s friend is otherwise the same in the Czech and Slovak dialogues.


N: Umí anglicky? Mluví a píše dobře?

B: Vie po anglicky? Hovorí a píše dobre?

“Does she know English? Does she speak and write it well?”

Cz: umít | Sk: vedieť “to know (how to do sg)”

For learners, modern Czech has three verbs that can translate the verb “to know”: vědět “to know (a fact)”, umít “to know (how to do sg)” and znát “to know (a person or place)”. Modern Slovak has two such verbs: vedieť “to know (a fact or how to do sg)” and poznať “to know (a person or place) (using znáť in this sense is somewhat dated and using it today might even be taken as a form of Czech interference). However, the descriptive Slovak dictionary from 1959-1968 lists umieť (i.e. the Slovak cognate of Czech umít) as an outdated literary form of vedieť when expressing the concept of having the knowledge or ability to perform a task.

Cz: anglicky | Sk: po anglicky “(in) English (language)”

The difference is that in Czech the preposition po for this phrase is not used whereas in Slovak it is usual. It is possible to encounter instances in informal Slovak where po is omitted (e.g. Vieš anglicky? rather than Vieš po anglicky? “Do you know (how to speak in / write in) English?”.

Cz: mluvit | Sk: hovoriť “to speak, talk; say, tell”

Each verb is codified for its own language only. Mluvit has no cognate in modern Slovak (it might in an older form but this is only my speculation). Cognates from other Slavonic languages are perhaps more recognizable to others here in Bulgarian мълва “hearsay”, Polish mówić “to speak”, Russian молвa “hearsay, rumour” and Ukrainian розмовляти “to talk”

On the other hand, hovořit is the Czech cognate of Slovak hovoriť but it usually refers to conversing or discussing (i.e. speaking about something comprehensively) as opposed to speaking or talking as a general act.


J: Ano, samozřejmě. Eva je totiž Angličanka.

J: Áno, samozrejme. Eva je totiž Angličanka.

“Yes, of course. Eva is English, you see.”

Cz: samozřejmě | Sk: samozrejme “of course”

See here for comments on zřejmě versus zrejme and here on the example of dobře and dobre for comments on the preceding ř versus r.

Šťastný nový rok!

Edited by Chung on 02 January 2014 at 10:09pm

3 persons have voted this message useful



Mooby
Senior Member
Scotland
Joined 3236 days ago

707 posts - 508 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 420 of 541
31 December 2013 at 11:56am | IP Logged 
For his noble efforts in Team Żubr, I have great pleasure in awarding the Żubr medal* of honour to Chung:


*Courtesy of Białowieża National Park
Well done! Best wishes for next year.
1 person has voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 4287 days ago

4232 posts - 4063 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 421 of 541
02 January 2014 at 5:42pm | IP Logged 
Dziękuję, Mooby. Szkoda, że “Żubr” już nie ma, ale miło mi było członkiem takiej drużyny.
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Mooby
Senior Member
Scotland
Joined 3236 days ago

707 posts - 508 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 422 of 541
02 January 2014 at 8:46pm | IP Logged 
To prawda, ale żubry wzrosły skrzydełka!!
1 person has voted this message useful



prz_
Tetraglot
Senior Member
Poland
last.fm/user/prz_rul
Joined 1990 days ago

890 posts - 300 votes 
Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian
Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish

 
 Message 423 of 541
02 January 2014 at 8:46pm | IP Logged 
Please allow me to correct it :) Szkoda że "Żubra" (or "Żubrów", if plural) już nie ma, ale miło mi było być członkiem takiej drużyny.

and "Żubrom wyrosły skrzydełka", if you mean what i mean ;)

Edited by prz_ on 02 January 2014 at 8:47pm



Mooby
Senior Member
Scotland
Joined 3236 days ago

707 posts - 508 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 424 of 541
02 January 2014 at 8:49pm | IP Logged 
Thanks prz, the Dative is a minefield!



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