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TAC 2013 MIR Russian TEAM THREAD | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes  Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 305 of 586 08 January 2013 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Would it be a normal verbal elision for shortening then, Mark? I mean, like you could be asked in English "What have you been doing, guys?", and then you could answer "I've been doing [this], she did [that]" OR just "I? [this]; she -- [that]" for short.
Not quite 'grammatical', and definitely something you wouldn't write, but perfectly right in colloquial speech. Or is there any difference I'm missing on? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4851 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 306 of 586 08 January 2013 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yes, of course, it would. That's what I wrote about. It is called an incomplete sentence, it is grammatical and possible in any form of speech (oral and written), but when writing one must put a dash instead of the verb. Edited by Марк on 08 January 2013 at 12:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4502 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 307 of 586 08 January 2013 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Of course it's not completely correct. But I see Russians use it in chat, and that means it exists. And I prefer to stick with how my friends write to me than to be grammatically correct. Language is used to communicate; and I'll be wrong on purpose if it gets the message across. I have seen and heard this at least 20 times where someone would go bla bla bla i'm tired я спать. So maybe you don't like it - but that doesn't stop me from seeing it from other Russians; go take it up with them. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4851 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 308 of 586 08 January 2013 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
There is no big difference between being gramtically correct and writing like your friends, but they can make typos and they probably do not use punctuation much. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 309 of 586 08 January 2013 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
OK. Please excuse me if I need to ask seemingly dumb questions, but the less firm your grasp of a language is, the less healthy it is to assume things you can do in languages you know well apply there too. For example, I assume elision is bound to happen in all languages (except maybe if you deal with overly chatty individuals), but I wouldn't be so sure that the elements you can or should omit in your responses would be the same in all languages, and it would be plain wrong to assume similar speech patterns are rendered the same way in written form in different languages* (or that punctuation works the same way in all languages for that matter), so it's necessary to ask -- in Spanish, for example, the only use of long dashes is alternating narration and characters' speech in fiction. *Typographical conventions are an important part of the language for those who intend to read or write well, and they are almost completely neglected all too often. I was shocked to discover that many English B2 certified Spaniards didn't even realize that the same works are rendered so differently in Spanish and English until they faced a properly formatted parallel text. No wonder they can barely read at an acceptable speed. (I know there are probably more reasons to it.) About natives who don't know their own conventions either, it may be harmless even for the most part but there's nothing good to say about such types. Seeing translated works that are hard to read just because the translator doesn't even know how texts are conventionally rendered in their mother tongue is cringe-inducing, and quite sad for me. Edited by mrwarper on 08 January 2013 at 1:33pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4502 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 310 of 586 08 January 2013 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Yeah but they self-correct obvious typos. In the case of punctuation, they are still speaking Russian and even though they may not use the "100% correct" punctuation, it doesn't matter to me because my goal is to communicate with them in Russian, not to point out their punctuation deficiencies! And if that means they, or I, leave out a comma, or a verb form, or do not write a dash, that can only mean one thing: we are talking to each other despite our flaws! And we are talking to each other and understanding each other. Furthermore, this isn't an isolated case; I see it being written in VK text like this quite often. If everybody else speaks like this, and if I corroborate with native speakers that this is how they say it, then, in my view, it's correct. Just because in French you have to write Il n'y a pas doesn't mean people write that when they're talking to other people online either. Nor do they do so in speech. You can bemoan that "il n'y a pas sounds like y a pas", but that is how people speak and thus I will speak like they do. My goal is not to sound like a perfectly bookish Russian who has learned every single grammar and pronunciation rule by heart! Instead, my goal is to go to Russia, and to make friends in the local language, and meet the friends I have already made, and to communicate with them and enjoy life with them through my newfound skills and obtain a deeper understand of their language and culture. And for that goal, this is a worthwhile discovery.
I don't care about what natives do unless it's a mistake that drastically alters meaning of the sentence. Translations are a different story because those are people paid to do a certain job in which they are not living up to the standards asked of them. That doesn't reflect badly on them as people (they might be perfectly nice) but they should realise that translation work also requires awareness of punctuation rules. Edited by tarvos on 08 January 2013 at 1:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5129 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 311 of 586 08 January 2013 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I do not see that your views differ all that much. Tarvos has taught as a point that will come in very handy,
and which will spare us for being puzzled when we get to it, Mark has put it in a context for us. I am grateful to both. And I am happy that we are currently in the team thread of the team Mir and not in the team Война... 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 312 of 586 08 January 2013 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Sure, the thing is, sometimes it's not so easy to tell simple mistakes from plain ignorance, or anything else -- especially for those of us who still see the language 'from the outside'. A Russian/Lithuanian friend of mine was quite surprised that I understood every word (and cases) in a 'simple sentence' yet I could not make any sense out of it. It was actually two simpler sentences that should be separated by a (missing) dot. In the beginning he didn't even notice the lacking punctuation, but it totally choked my still immature Russian 'parser' -- proper punctuation is still pretty important to me, at least in the sense of knowing any rules.
Mmmmh, the problem goes all the way up until you ask what kind of standards we have that such sloppy work gets published. OTOH I know translators whose ethics are quite debatable, so it would probably reflect badly on them, but apparently (and fortunately) it's not the most common case :) Edited by mrwarper on 08 January 2013 at 2:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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