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FAQ-NL: Dutch | ||
Tags: The Netherlands | Dutch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5146 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 129 of 509 09 June 2010 at 1:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I think the main verb is not omitted at all but is supposed to be "zonder kunnen" which is an expression meaning "to get by without" or "to can do without". I would translate "Kan een premier wel zonder een first lady?" as "Can a premier get by without a first lady?" or "Can a premier do without a first lady?". Of course you could say "Kan een premier regeren zonder first lady?" but just know that the original Dutch sentence makes perfect sense as it is. Think about the expression "Ik kan prima zonder hem." which might sound a bit weird to you as well but it's perfectly expectable and would be translated as "I get by fine without him."
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| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5677 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 130 of 509 09 June 2010 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
But from a Dutch-learner's perspective, even with 'zonder', the main verb is still missing. It sounds like "Can a premier well without a first lady?" I know that I must accept Dutch as it is but I am trying to understand when you can use this construction and when you cannot. Your example: "Ik kan prima zonder hem." By itself, it means "I get by fine without him.". But could I say: "Ik zing met hem. Maar ik kan prima zonder hem." meaning. "But I can sing well without him."? And going back to the original sentence in De Telegraaf: If the context were "visit foreign leaders", could it be like this? "Zijn baan vereist hem buitenlandse leiders te bezoeken. Kan een premier wel zonder een first lady?" meaning "Can a premier effectively visit foreign leaders without a first lady?" If so, then it appears that, if the main verb is obvious from the context, it can be omitted? By the way, thanks very much for this advice and all your other advice. It is very much appreciated. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5677 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 131 of 509 09 June 2010 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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FAQ-NL: Speak or speak to?
Google searches show that Dutch writers use both "Ik sprak haar." and "Ik sprak haar aan." In English you would say "I spoke to her." but you cannot say "I spoke her." Are both correct in Dutch? Is there any subtle difference between the two? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| FuroraCeltica Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6676 days ago 1187 posts - 1427 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 132 of 509 09 June 2010 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Many Dutch verbs seem to start with "ver" and "be". Is there a way to help memorise them?
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| staf250 Pentaglot Senior Member Belgium emmerick.be Joined 5508 days ago 352 posts - 414 votes Speaks: French, Dutch*, Italian, English, German Studies: Arabic (Written) | Message 133 of 509 09 June 2010 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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You are right, I have to think about and I will do so. By now it seems that after the start-item "ver" and "be"
comes a form of a word. Look: veranderen means to change: in the middle you see "ander". begrijpen means to grasp, to understand: here "begrijp" comes from "begrip" (has many means). I shall think of others. ;) How do you study Dutch, Michael? Edited by staf250 on 09 June 2010 at 5:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5146 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 134 of 509 09 June 2010 at 6:30pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
I can think of two ways to interpret those sentences: 1. You sing with someone but you can sing whatever you sing together by yourself as well. 2. You sing with someone but apart from this you can do without them in a general sense. To clarify that you mean the second I would insert "verder" after "kan".
This sounds a bit strange. It's as if your saying "His job requires him to visit foreign leaders. Can a premier do without a first lady?" It's not ungrammatical, just a bit of a non-sequitur. If you wanted to refer back to the having to visit foreign leaders I would say "Kan een premier dit wel zonder een first lady?" but then the original expression is gone.
It's important to understand that the construction is not so much a grammatical feature as it is a general expression. It means that you can or cannot do without something in the general sense of being what you are and doing what you do. (You might want to get used to the dramatic "Ik kan niet zonder hem/haar." because there's a good chance you'll come across it at some point in a Dutch love story. ;-P) When you mention a premier and a first lady, everyone automatically assumes you mean to ask whether the premier can perform his tasks as premier without a first lady. In other words, can he be what he is without something else?
You're welcome. I actually really like answering these kind of questions because they're a great way to delve a little deeper in some features of my native language I would otherwise never have reflected on this carefully. Edited by ReneeMona on 22 June 2010 at 12:43am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5146 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 135 of 509 09 June 2010 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Spreken simply means to speak and in Dutch you can speak met/with someone or you can just spreken someone. Either one means to speak to/with. "Aanspreken" has several meanings: 1. iemand aanpreken - to address someone 2. iets spreekt je aan - something appeals to you (As in that someone or something pleases or interests you) 3. iemand ergens op aanspreken - to repraoch someone for something (e.g. bad conduct) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5578 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 136 of 509 09 June 2010 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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As for dropping the verb: I'd say, it is an elliptical construction only possible with predictable verbs. "Ik moet nog naar de tandarts" is quite clear, but "Hij kan niet zonder zijn vrouw" seems to imply "leven", the most common verb, not "regeren", which would be fairly unpredictable.
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