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| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4639 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 433 of 509 22 September 2011 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I used to have an active interest in Dutch many years ago, but, but it passed. Much later, I studied German, and got to a much higher level in that than I was ever at in Dutch, although, as others have reported, found I could often read Dutch with a reasonable understanding, from my German knowledge (and perhaps a vestigial memory of learning Dutch). Speaking and listening were another matter of course.
Now, the reason I started with Dutch was because I had met a Flemish girl ... (you'll have heard similar stories of course), and naively, I looked for books on how to learn Flemish in English bookshops (this was late 1960s) and didn't find any. It took me a while to realise that Flemish and Dutch were closely related and that I should be looking for books on how to learn Dutch, which of course I did. Now, fast forward to the present, and I was interested to read a comment (I think in this thread) saying that if you were going to learn Dutch and Flemish, then you should start with Flemish. Just taking that as a serious comment and assuming it has any merit, can the modern-day learner actually find self-study Flemish books or courses, or do you still have to go the route of learning Dutch (as far as formal courses are concerned)? I remember reading in the late 60s or 70s, that the universities of Belgium and the Netherlands had agreed that the written form of Flemish and Dutch were officially the same (with some very minor changes). I gather that this is not now actually the case, and they are recognised, even in the written form, as two separate languages. Have I got this right? I remember my former Flemish girlfriend telling me that at that time, from time to time in Belgium, they would have a special day where everyone (in Flemish speaking Belgium) was supposed to speak "Dutch". Now, I don't know if they meant Netherlands Dutch or "standard Flemish" (as opposed to the local dialect). Do any Flemings remember this? Does it still happen...? I think that since those days, Flemings have become a bit more assertive about their language within Belgium, and if anything, it would definitely be Flemish "Dutch" they would be celebrating, and not Netherlands Dutch. I was also interested to read someone's comment that people who know English and German should really not have much of a problem learning Dutch. That being the case, I was wondering about perhaps restarting it at some point, and then got to thinking if it was actually possible to find a specific Flemish course, as opposed to the usual Netherlands-oriented Dutch courses. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Aquila Triglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5292 days ago 104 posts - 128 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German Studies: French | Message 434 of 509 22 September 2011 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Flemish is not very different from the standard Dutch language, only some words and expressions are different in
Flemish. The difference is maybe even smaller then the difference between English and American English. It's the accent which is the most striking difference between standard Dutch and Flemish. If you want to use Dutch mainly in Belgium, then I would recommend you to learn the Flemish accent (which is maybe easier to obtain due to the less guttural sounds) and expressions, but otherwise, i'd go for the Standard Dutch as it is more spoken. And there are more learning materials in the standard Dutch. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4639 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 435 of 509 24 September 2011 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | |||||
I wish I could find the posting I was thinking about, but I think basically he was saying that if you wanted (eventually) to be able to speak (and presumably understand) both the Dutch of the Netherlands, and the Dutch of Flemish-speaking Belgium, then the order to do it was first Flemish, and then Netherlands-Dutch. Moving in that direction would be easier (or possible), while moving in the other direction would be difficult (or impossible). I don't think he fully explained why. Anyway, presumably, short of moving to Belgium, presumably the best way to learn a Flemish accent would be to listen/watch Flemish radio and TV on the internet. Or at least one way. Can you be sure that by picking a Dutch Belgian radio or TV station at random, you will actually be hearing Flemish, or are some more oriented towards a more standardised "Dutch"? i.e. is there a "broadcasting Dutch" used in Belgium that would be acceptable in the Netherlands and Belgium? I'm guessing there will be regional stations that are definitely Flemish, but then you have the danger that it will be a fairly obscure dialect, which even some Belgians would have difficulty with, but the learner wouldn't know that in advance. So, after a quick google, would VRT be a good choice, for example? EDIT: I'd forgotten about this useful website: http://www.listenlive.eu/ and http://www.listenlive.eu/belgium.html has some useful links. A depressing number of pop/rock and not a lot of speech channels on show, but that's fairly par for the course. Surprised not to see any news only channel, at least on a first look. EDIT2: What I was hoping to find was something along the lines of Deutsche Welle or BBC Radio 4, or BBC World Service, but no luck so far. Maybe looking for TV would actually be better although radio is normally my natural medium, given the choice. Meanwhile, I found this interesting post, and some (in some cases surprising responses), on (of all places) the BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/yoursay/language_and_identity /dutchflemish/flemish_far_m ore_than_a_dialect_of_dutch.shtml So some Belgians don't like their language to be called "Flemish" (especially the ones who don't live in West or Oost-Vlaanderen, understandably), and I suppose I should be no more surprised that national pride is not hurt by referring to their language as "Nederlands" any more than Americans get upset by calling their language "English". Leaving that aside, there is still the practical problem of the non-native speaker who wants to learn the Belgian-Dutch (or Flemish) accent or dialect or whatever we should call it, and internet radio isn't looking like the best way so far. I have however, found a few interesting podcasts, and they were definitely Belgian-Dutch and not Netherlands-Dutch (they didn't clear their throat every time a "g" was spoken :-) ). EDIT3 Have now found the posting I was referred to earlier. In this thread on this page: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=17864&PN=1&TPN=2 From: Vinbelgium Message 11 of 43614 November 2009 at 4:45pm ------------------------------------------------ I will quote the relevant part:
Seems to imply that shifting from the Flemish accent to the Dutch accent is simple. Is it actually? Edited by montmorency on 25 September 2011 at 2:46am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4639 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 436 of 509 25 September 2011 at 12:15am | IP Logged | |||||
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Further to my previous ramblings, although I haven't found the post I was talking
about, I've found this one, which gives an interesting Belgian view of Dutch/Flemish: This thread: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=22939&PN=1 This posting: From: blauw Message 3 of 612 September 2010 at 10:42pm ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- [I'm not posting the text - the following are my own comments:-] So, the standard Belgian-Dutch that I was trying to think of is called "Algemeen Belgisch Nederlands (Standard Belgian Dutch)", and I guess that is what one is likely to hear on mainstream Belgian-Dutch TV and radio, unless it is specifically featuring regional dialect for whatever reason. (and that's probably what the Belgian government was trying to get people to speak in those campaigns of over 40 years ago that my former girlfriend told me about). It kind of makes sense now, and I suppose ABN represents a kind of Belgian equivalent of "BBC English", which probably most English people know how to speak, but regionally, most people don't. A question for Belgians: Could you, if you wanted (let's say you were acting in a play or something - I know you wouldn't while travelling in the Netherlands) imitate a standard Netherlands Dutch accent? A question for Dutch people: - Could you, if you wanted (let's say you were acting in a play or something - I know you wouldn't while travelling in Belgium) imitate a standard Belgian-Dutch accent? By analogy, I could convincingly imitate a Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cockney and Geordie accent, and with a little tuition, I could probably manage Cornish, Birmingham/Black Country, Norfolk, and maybe a few others. Of course, I would not attempt to do this while in those areas, as I would be immediately rumbled - especially in Scotland, for lack of knowledge of dialect vocabulary and expressions, but I might fool an Englishman who didn't know them better than I did, and I could pass them off say in an amateur dramatic production. Would this sort of exercise be as easy between standard Dutch and standard Belgian Dutch? (Note that I am studiously avoiding the word Flemish here). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Remster Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 4616 days ago 120 posts - 134 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English Studies: German, French | Message 437 of 509 30 September 2011 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | |||||
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It's basically the same. Most people in the Netherlands and Flanders can communicate without any difficulties. Of course, there are always some dialects/accents somewhere, but that's no different from a ''cowboy'' talking to a ''yankee'' both using strong accents.
No offense intended 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4639 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 438 of 509 30 September 2011 at 9:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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None, taken.
I suspect that differences, when they occur, are more political than linguistic, and between the Flemish and French speakers in Belgium, than between the Dutch speakers of either country. I had more success finding TV programmes on the internet, than radio, that allowed me to listen to continuous Belgian-Dutch. I think I noticed a strong "r" sound, which perhaps is less noticeable in the Netherlands. Apart from that, it sounded "Dutch", to my English ears. Edited by montmorency on 30 September 2011 at 9:49pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ReneeMona Diglot Senior Member Netherlands Joined 5146 days ago 864 posts - 1274 votes Speaks: Dutch*, EnglishC2 Studies: French | Message 439 of 509 30 September 2011 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Heads up, long post ahead. I tried to answer every question you asked and before I
knew it I had written all of this. I hope some (preferably all) of it is useful for you and that someone from the other side of the border might be able to share their perspective of things because I wasn't able to answer everything. When it comes to learning materials, a lot of courses don't seem to take the difference between Flemish and Dutch as seriously as the different dialects of other languages like English, French, Spanish, etc. I've never heard of a course that specifies whether it teaches Dutch or Flemish and the two Assimil courses for Dutch use speakers of both variants (if I remember correctly, sans peine uses Dutch speakers and perfectionnement Flemish speakers without ever alerting the learner to the difference). As far as I'm aware, Dutch and Flemish are still considered two dialects of the same language and the written language is still the same. Some people might rightfully make a case for various dialects in both countries being in fact regional languages because they are so different from the standard language but there is no denying that standard Belgium and Netherlands Dutch are mutually intelligible. When a Flemish speaker appears on Dutch TV, there is never any question of having subtitles, even though some dialects in the Netherlands itself are sometimes subtitled when the speaker is actually perfectly understandable. From a practical point of view, I would say that for someone who wants to learn both Flemish and Netherlands-Dutch, learning the in a Dutch->Flemish order would be easier, simply because most learning materials seem to teach Netherlands Dutch and once you speak Dutch, it would be relatively easy to expose yourself to Belgian media and pick up the specific accent and vocab. An argument for the reversed order might be that many people find Flemish easier to pronounce, since it lacks the hard guttural g and has a less confusing r. However, if you wanted to learn N-D, you would have to deal with its sounds eventually so I don't see much point to that approach. There is not some sort of “mid-Atlantic” accent, so to speak, that is used in both countries. The accents you hear on Dutch TV and radio may differ but they are all decidedly N-D and I assume the situation is the same in Flanders. I can't comment on the question of whether switching from a Flemish accent to a Dutch accent is easy or easier than the other way around. It seems pretty obvious to me that once you speak one of the two, the other is going to seem harder to adopt. I can't do a Flemish accent to save my life but I'm sure there are plenty of people who are more gifted at imitating accents and who can do a Flemish accent. Yes, I think that sort of exercise would be just as easy between Netherlands-Dutch and Belgian-Dutch. It's all a matter of exposure and a here in the Netherlands we are not exposed to Flemish very often but I'm sure that if I spend a considerable amount of time living in Belgium, acquired a large amount of Flemish friends or watched a lot of Belgian TV, I would eventually be able to imitate a Flemish accent quite faithfully, since there is nothing in the pronunciation that is all that foreign to me. The Flemish r is more strongly trilled than the average Dutch r (though it varies enormously between different dialects and accents). To my Dutch ears, Flemish always sounds more French-influenced; more melodious and softer without the guttural sounds and the intonation reminds me of French as well. Edited by ReneeMona on 30 September 2011 at 11:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4639 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 440 of 509 03 October 2011 at 1:36am | IP Logged | |||||
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ReneeMona,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. I don't mind long replies, and in fact welcome them. I think I understand your points. I am glad that I seemed to notice the Flemish "r's" as being a bit different from Netherland-ish "r's". I already knew about the "g" difference. My problem at the moment is that there seems to be a shortage of internet radio, and not very much internet TV coverage of Flemish (as opposed to Netherlands-Dutch) language programmes. I am talking, of course, of primarily speech-based programmes. If I wanted to listen to DJs jabbering in between (mostly English language) pop music, then I suppose I would have no shortage, but of continuous, serious, or at last semi- serious speech, there seems to be very little, at least findable by google. Anyway, it was interesting to get your "take" on this. Thanks again for your time. Best wishes, M. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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