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FAQ-NL: Dutch | ||
Tags: The Netherlands | Dutch | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| stwel Pentaglot Newbie Belgium Joined 4897 days ago 12 posts - 12 votes Speaks: Dutch*, French, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: Mandarin, German, Italian | Message 193 of 509 24 December 2010 at 10:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Also check out these pages :
Usage of dit/deze and dat/die : http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=Pronouns.De06 Usage of de/het http://www.dutchgrammar.com/en/?n=NounsAndArticles.03 Both are articles on what seems to be an excellent resource for help on dutch grammar. Edit : Apparently I can't post the above links as real links because I'm a newbie :(. You'll have to copy-paste them. Vrolijk kerstfeest! Edited by stwel on 24 December 2010 at 10:30pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5578 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 194 of 509 25 December 2010 at 12:24am | IP Logged | |||||
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Concerning the comments on 1.(...) we would say : "Je gaat af en toe naar de bioscoop.". 2. "Je leest af en toe een/de krant." (Or any other word order) QUOTE] Especially: "af en toe" should indeed be at the end, unless you would be using "de krant", in which case it would sound more natural if you say "Hij leest af en toe de krant". The difference between both sentences is that "die krant" refers to a specific newspaper, whereas "de krant" is indefinite, and refers to any newspaper. [/QUOTE] I think the best advice we can give to our student of Dutch is to put time adjects between conjugated verb (SV) and any object (incl. prepositional, directional), etc. I think that is the easiest, "most grammatical" rule s/he can use. But the problem seems to be that in spoken language we tend to use the "non-tang" construction ^which I love to call 'knitting', which is communicatively more logical (first the nucleus, then the adjuncts). But I would not even make a distinction between the "een' and "de" sentence, as I think very often they mean the same. No ? Edited by JanKG on 25 December 2010 at 12:36am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5677 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 195 of 509 25 December 2010 at 3:02pm | IP Logged | |||||
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FAQ-NL: Double separable verbs?
I just read the following sentence from the lingq.com web site: "Terwijl je lessen in LingQ studeert, zoek en sla je nieuwe woorden en uitdrukkingen op." It is the first time that I have noticed the use of two separable verbs together like this. Both 'opzoeken' and 'opslaan' are separable verbs (zoek ... op) (sla ... op). In this sentence, zoek and sla share the "op". Maybe 'op' isn't really associated with both zoek and sla in this sentence. Is this sentence structure common in Dutch? I think such double-separable sentence structure might be possible in English but would probably sound awkward. "Switch off or turn off the light." "Switch or turn off the light." In the second sentence, switch doesn't really get 'off' attached to it. I'm sure you wouldn't say "Round and lock up the prisoners." Can anyone think of a better example in English? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5578 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 196 of 509 25 December 2010 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
I would say: very good observation, Signor Tommus! It is not a good sentence, in part because of that contraction. I'd never write that myself. It does seem to suggest we are using one "up" for two verbs. That is "not done". Normally the rules states that for a contraction it is necessary for the parts of the sentence to have the same function and the same meaning, which might be the case here, but at least in this combination the meaning of "up" is unclear. But the main problem might be the inversion: in an inversion one cannot just drop the subject and contract, I'd say, especially when the verb is not complete. (You might look for "'tante betje-constructie", which is a notorious case...) Even "Je zoekt en slaat de woorden op" is no good, I think, because we first want the object with the first verb... You see ? Edited by JanKG on 25 December 2010 at 6:57pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tommus Senior Member CanadaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5677 days ago 979 posts - 1688 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Dutch, French, Esperanto, German, Spanish | Message 197 of 509 25 December 2010 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Very interesting Jan, as usual.
I didn't notice the 'tante betje-constructie' because I was distracted with the 'op' issue, and I did not know it by that name. I looked it up. This is an example of what makes HTLAL so interesting. So it appears that you can never use one 'op' to complete two verbs. I think it is the same in English. I'll bring this to the attention of the person who wrote it to see if he has any comment. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5578 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 198 of 509 25 December 2010 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I can give you a funny example (hilarious to native speakers), which does not work either:
"Hier zet men koffie en over."] (Here ... you can take a ferry - one makes/ gets (...) coffee - and across) Impossible, because these are two meanings of "zetten" (make, get across). I think your example was similar, though in that case the verbs were different... Edited by JanKG on 25 December 2010 at 10:07pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Vini Diglot Newbie Brazil Joined 4919 days ago 24 posts - 22 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, English Studies: Latin, Dutch | Message 199 of 509 26 December 2010 at 2:13am | IP Logged | |||||
I still haven't really figured out the differences, but I'll get there with a little more practice! Thanks! and Thank you stwel for the grammar articles links! Edited by Vini on 26 December 2010 at 2:14am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JanKG Tetraglot Senior Member Belgium Joined 5578 days ago 245 posts - 280 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, German, French Studies: Italian, Finnish | Message 200 of 509 26 December 2010 at 9:06am | IP Logged | |||||
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I'd say I doubt there are real differences. Stick to the bold rule in written language especially, to some extent also in spoken language.
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