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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan

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tarvos
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Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 617 of 1511
09 April 2013 at 10:14pm | IP Logged 
The Routledge Introductory Course in Modern Hebrew. It consists of 90 lessons (8 units,
my bad). It's quite thorough. Most lessons are two to three pages - it's basically a
giant workbook with an internet site to accompany it that has all the audio, recorded
verb conjugations, everything. The website is linked to in the book but you need a
password and username to be able to access the audio (it's free and everyone has the same
username/password I think).

I also have l'Hebreu sans peine, in a series of Assimil books in French, but I have not
done anything with that bar listen to the audio of the first lesson and read through it a
bit.

Edited by tarvos on 09 April 2013 at 10:15pm

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Expugnator
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 Message 618 of 1511
09 April 2013 at 10:41pm | IP Logged 
Thank you, tarvos. As you may know, I like the format with shorter lessons, and Routledge's stuff seems to be more focused on grammar, so it would be a nice complement to the Assimils. I don't think I have it, though, but there's so much for Hebrew around, anyway.
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
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5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 619 of 1511
10 April 2013 at 7:35am | IP Logged 
It is actually surprisingly hard to find a
dictionary that is adequate. They are
available on Amazon, but those dictionaries
often work with transliteration which is
absolutely useless. Furthermore there are
dictionaries for biblical Hebrew which is
doubly beside the point.

1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2869 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 620 of 1511
10 April 2013 at 11:55am | IP Logged 
For now, just a note on Hebrew transliterations - god, do I hate the way the French
transliterate Hebrew. Okay, they DO distinguish kaf and qof, (and transliterate with k
and q, although both have the value /k/ in Modern Hebrew), but not distinguishing
between he and chet is annoying. /h/ is not /χ/! And yes, I know chet used to be
pronounced /ħ/, but that is also not /h/! This is one reason reading the Assimil annoys
me (and why I started with the routledge course, apart from that the Assimil course
loves niqqud - and I want to learn how to read without niqqud because guess what THAT
IS HOW YOU WRITE). And it is also annoying because you can use a lot of much better
transliterations for chet like... ummm /x/ (because one of its former values was /x/),
/ch/ (because it's the same sound as kaf without a dagesh, namely /χ/), although /ch/
might be confusing because that sound represents /ʃ/ in French (and there's a different
letter indicating that sound in Hebrew, even kh... but not h! And to note that French
doesn't even have /h/ 99% of the time!

This annoys the living hell out of me and it was the one thing that pissed me off when
someone wrote to me in transliterated Hebrew transliterating it like a Frenchman.

The best is of course to simply learn how to read Hebrew, but I understand it is not
feasible for those among us who have no interest in learning Modern Hebrew. And this
rant is not about Biblical Hebrew because in that language some Hebrew letters do not
have the same pronunciation (e.g. alef and ayin are pronounced differently, whereas now
they are both a glottal stop).

Speaking of Hebrew pronunciation, it is actually very easy to pronounce nowadays. The
only tough sound being indeed /χ/ for most people (or /h/ if you are Russian...)


1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2869 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 621 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 12:26am | IP Logged 
FR: Aujourd'hui je n'ai pas fait grande chose avec mes langues. J'ai eu une leçon de
russe (qui était absolument atroce et je n'en veux pas parler, ça allait si mal!), mais
j'ai reçu des bonnes nouvelles - le premier était que j'ai réussi au test final du
cours de français à niveau B1.3 en obtenant la note 18,6/20, y compris un 24/25 pour
l'expression écrit et l'oral (et l'expression, et la compréhension. J'ai pas
l'intention de continuer cette semestre, je n'ai pas le temps, mais j'ai l'intention de
continuer mes études de français d'une autre façon, soit autodidacte, soit en utilisant
iTalki, soit en trouvant un cours après avoir reçu mon diplôme.

Ce qui me fait mal, c'est le fait qu'il était si facile pour moi d'obtenir des tels
notes que 88,92,93% sans vraiment devoir faire aucun vrai effort; ça ne m'a pris que 10
minutes pour les exercices grammaticales et encore 15-30 minutes par semaine en faisant
l'écrit obligatoire chaque semaine. Du coup c'est très peu, et ça donne encore une
indication que j'ai obtenu des résultants plus avancé que la totalité de B1 (y compris
l'utilisation d'Alter Ego, un livre de texte absolument atroce). Je n'ai pas le courage
de définir mon niveau exacte en français, mais ça devrait être B2 en tout cas (et pas
plus car il y a une vraie multitude de fautes inévitables que je devrais faire avant
que j'arrive au niveau C1 où C2 - et non, l'accent ne compte pas).

En addition, j'ai acheté le livre "Barbe bleue" par (qui d'autre) Amélie Nothomb afin
d'avoir quelque chose de lire en français pendant mon absence aux cours de groupe. Je
m'y rendrai plus tard mais je n'ai pas encore une idée quand ce bonheur sera de retour.

En concernant mes autres langues, hier j'ai fini deux leçons d’hébreu et de roumain, y
compris mettre les nouveaux mots dans Anki. J'ai reconnu que le roumain ne pose pas
trop de problèmes quant au lecture (ok, admettons, qu'il y a assez de mots inconnus,
mais ça va quand même), mais que la production orale et écrite laisse encore quelque
chose à souhaiter.

L’hébreu est un peu plus problématique - malgré sa structure très régulière, l’hébreu,
comme le russe, force l'apprenant à retenir des mots aux racines ne pas correspondant
aux racines romanes ou Germaniques - le russe contient encore des emprunts qui sont
reconnaissables (pourvu que l'apprenant sait encore lire l'alphabet cyrillique) mais ça
ne va pas du tout de même pour l’hébreu, qui a du mal à adapter des nouveaux mots -
logique car la morphologie verbale est très particulière avec ses racines tri-
littérales (et donc les emprunts qui existent sont pratiquement toujours des noms ou
parfois des adjectifs). Ça demande la construction d'une nouvelle vocabulaire. Tandis
qu'en russe, j'ai réussi (en toute façon à la base) de construire cette vocabulaire (ne
pas en disant que je connais tous les secrets du russe), cette structure n'est pas
encore complété en hébreu. J'ai décidé de commencer avec l'Assimil dès que le Breton
sans peine soit fini - il me reste encore 26 leçons dans la vague active...

Tandis qu'en roumain, tout est limpide comme l'eau de source... (ah non - mais cette
langue est peu mystérieuse si on sait déjà parler une autre langue romane... et les
emprunts slaves ne sont pas difficiles puisque je parle le russe).


1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3218 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 622 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 8:58am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
For now, just a note on Hebrew transliterations - god, do I hate the
way the French
transliterate Hebrew. Okay, they DO distinguish kaf and qof, (and transliterate with k
and q, although both have the value /k/ in Modern Hebrew), but not distinguishing
between he and chet is annoying. /h/ is not /χ/! And yes, I know chet used to be
pronounced /ħ/, but that is also not /h/! This is one reason reading the Assimil annoys
me (and why I started with the routledge course, apart from that the Assimil course
loves niqqud - and I want to learn how to read without niqqud because guess what THAT
IS HOW YOU WRITE). And it is also annoying because you can use a lot of much better
transliterations for chet like... ummm /x/ (because one of its former values was /x/),
/ch/ (because it's the same sound as kaf without a dagesh, namely /χ/), although /ch/
might be confusing because that sound represents /ʃ/ in French (and there's a different
letter indicating that sound in Hebrew, even kh... but not h! And to note that French
doesn't even have /h/ 99% of the time!

This annoys the living hell out of me and it was the one thing that pissed me off when
someone wrote to me in transliterated Hebrew transliterating it like a Frenchman.

The best is of course to simply learn how to read Hebrew, but I understand it is not
feasible for those among us who have no interest in learning Modern Hebrew. And this
rant is not about Biblical Hebrew because in that language some Hebrew letters do not
have the same pronunciation (e.g. alef and ayin are pronounced differently, whereas now
they are both a glottal stop).

Speaking of Hebrew pronunciation, it is actually very easy to pronounce nowadays. The
only tough sound being indeed /χ/ for most people (or /h/ if you are Russian...)


Why did you laugh at me when I complained about similar things? The Serbo-Croatian l is
not the same as lj (not all ljudi are ludi). The English t is not the Russian т, and of
course ъ doesn not indicate a short pause in Russian and so on. Now you can see my
point, can't you?
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2869 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 623 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 10:20am | IP Logged 
Because the point here is not that the sounds cannot be pronounced in a certain way
(I'm not talking about velar vs uvular pronunciation f.e.x), but that the
transliteration in the Assimil is ambiguous. I'm not arguing about the actual sound
values. An English transliteration is also inaccurate but generally represents the
difference between kaf, chaf (kaf with a dagesh). The problem is that the French don't
have any of these guttural sounds (except the uvular R) and therefore they don't assign
a sound to it at all, but inconsistently mix letters although they indicate earlier on
what the actual values of those sounds are (i.e. that chet is pronounced /χ/ and not /
ħ/ as in Biblical Hebrew). It is not that they transliterate to the wrong sounds, but
that they transliterate to a transcription which is ambiguous given some knowledge of
the original Hebrew letters (I can read the script and the niqqud, but I cannot really
read any Hebrew text very well yet).

That isn't the same as exact 1-to-1 correspondence of English and Russian T sounds,
it's bemoaning the lack of a good transliteration for Hebrew which admittedly is also
due to the fact you need to accomodate some double sounds, because chaf and chet have
the same value, kaf and qof have the same value, tav and tet have the same value (i.e.
/t/) and so on. Hei and chet (occasionally also written het) used to be pronounced
quite similar in the old days, although they are not in Modern Hebrew.

I do my best to pronounce all sounds properly (even though in Russian f.ex. ш и щ give
trouble), you should already know that despite the fact that I cannot grasp some sounds
very well (German soft ch, Swedish sj-sound) ;)

English t is alveolar as opposed to dental, right?

I am not familiar with Serbo-Croatian to a large extent, but are l and lj in Serbo-
Croatian in any way comparable to Russian л, ль?

Edited by tarvos on 12 April 2013 at 10:21am

1 person has voted this message useful



Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
Joined 3218 days ago

2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 624 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 10:45am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:


That isn't the same as exact 1-to-1 correspondence of English and Russian T sounds,
it's bemoaning the lack of a good transliteration for Hebrew which admittedly is also
due to the fact you need to accomodate some double sounds, because chaf and chet have
the same value, kaf and qof have the same value, tav and tet have the same value (i.e.
/t/) and so on. Hei and chet (occasionally also written het) used to be pronounced
quite similar in the old days, although they are not in Modern Hebrew.

I do my best to pronounce all sounds properly (even though in Russian f.ex. ш и щ give
trouble), you should already know that despite the fact that I cannot grasp some sounds
very well (German soft ch, Swedish sj-sound) ;)

Yes, I'm talking about bad explanations and transliterations too (although not for
Hebrew).
tarvos wrote:

English t is alveolar as opposed to dental, right?

Yes. Plus there are some other differences.
tarvos wrote:

I am not familiar with Serbo-Croatian to a large extent, but are l and lj in Serbo-
Croatian in any way comparable to Russian л, ль?

Yes, they are similar, although not identical (the S.-C. sounds are softer).


1 person has voted this message useful



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