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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan

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tarvos
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Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 625 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 10:55am | IP Logged 
The difference between an alveolar and a dental t is somewhat smaller to me than that
between /h/ and /x/ or /h/ and /χ/ :) That reminds me, when I speak Russian, are my t's
and d's actually dental enough?

What do you mean by softer? More palatalised?
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Марк
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 Message 626 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 11:28am | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
The difference between an alveolar and a dental t is somewhat smaller
to
me than that
between /h/ and /x/ or /h/ and /χ/ :)

That's for you. But to a Russian ear the English t sounds like a mixture of т, ть, ч,
ц.
The exact value depends on the speaker or the position of a t. So, the difference is
very
audible. [h] and [x] are very similar to a Russian ear, but /χ/ sounds really
different.
tarvos wrote:

What do you mean by softer? More palatalised?

No. The S.-C. L is alveolar, while the Russian L is dental. The Russian soft L is a
palatalized sound, while the S.-C. is a palatal one.

Edited by Марк on 12 April 2013 at 11:29am

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tarvos
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Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 627 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 11:37am | IP Logged 
So what does "soft" here actually refer to then?

Quote:
That's for you. But to a Russian ear the English t sounds like a mixture of т,
ть, ч,ц. The exact value depends on the speaker or the position of a t. So, the
difference is
very audible.


I mostly hear aspiration in a lot of places. In some places English /t/ is actually one
of those other sounds because of English orthography being absolutely terribad.

I personally substituted Dutch 't' and 'd' at the beginning when studying Russian, but
I do not remember whether those were alveolar, dental, or somewhere in the middle. As
far as I remember, Belgians have a dental sound.

Edited by tarvos on 12 April 2013 at 11:37am

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Марк
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 Message 628 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 12:12pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
So what does "soft" here actually refer to then?

The height of a formant, I think.
tarvos wrote:

Quote:
That's for you. But to a Russian ear the English t sounds like a mixture of т,
ть, ч,ц. The exact value depends on the speaker or the position of a t. So, the
difference is
very audible.


I mostly hear aspiration in a lot of places. In some places English /t/ is actually one
of those other sounds because of English orthography being absolutely terribad.


I'm talking about the English sound [t]. Russian hard т is dry and hard. It does not
have even a shadow of softness or africation in itself.

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tarvos
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Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 629 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 12:17pm | IP Logged 
Yes, but English t can be many things depending on the word/position etc. The English
"pure" t sound... does that even exist? Is that the t sound as enunciated in "stop" (not
word-initial aspirated 't')
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Марк
Senior Member
Russian Federation
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2096 posts - 2972 votes 
Speaks: Russian*

 
 Message 630 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 12:42pm | IP Logged 
tarvos wrote:
Yes, but English t can be many things depending on the word/position etc.
The English
"pure" t sound... does that even exist? Is that the t sound as enunciated in "stop" (not
word-initial aspirated 't')

From the Russian point of view, it doesn't. There might be something similar, but it's
not garanteed. And the aspiration is the secondary thing, the main thing is the position
of the tongue.
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tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2869 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 631 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 1:01pm | IP Logged 
I see. Well, I don't pronounce an English t when speaking Russian anyways, but I don't
know how close my t gets to a Russian one (it's modelled on a Dutch t which is already
different from an English t).

Speaking of pronunciation, I find it really weird that a year or more ago I could not
distinguish between a whole variety of 'r' sounds (i.e. alveolar and uvular r sounded
the same to me). After I'd finally learned to pronounce an alveolar r the sounds have
become "distinct" in my mind.

(I also notice who uses what r in Dutch. In Dutch 'r' sounds are basically a "whatever
pick something").



Edited by tarvos on 12 April 2013 at 1:47pm

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tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 2869 days ago

5310 posts - 9398 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 632 of 1511
12 April 2013 at 4:12pm | IP Logged 
Romania is not going through, so back to my focus on Hebrew it is :)


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