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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 1225 of 3959
11 August 2009 at 9:06pm | IP Logged 
I find that they are just silly and wrong enough not to take the sport out of reading something in a more or less unknown language (and for me Serbian still belongs in that category). I get a hint, but not the final solution, and when I then look at the original text then I can more or less see what the words mean, - though I may look up a few words here and there to make sure that I understand the text better than Google does. We have often discussed the notion of "comprehensible input". OK, a bad translation can make incomprehensible input comprehensible in an entertaining way. Maybe I should have hit upon that idea somewhat earlier.

Edited by Iversen on 11 August 2009 at 9:12pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 1226 of 3959
11 August 2009 at 9:14pm | IP Logged 
When working with LingQ I use "Google Translate" Spanish-English for the unknown Spanish words in my lessons. In my estimation these Google translations of separate words or expressons are correct for 90 %. For Spanish I have enough background knowledge and "language feeling" to filter out any faultive translations, and in case of doubts I double-check them with my Langenscheidt paper dictionary Spanish-German.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 11 August 2009 at 9:17pm

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tommus
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 Message 1227 of 3959
11 August 2009 at 9:34pm | IP Logged 
mick33 wrote:
Google Translate is an interesting idea, but it doesn't always work well.

I find it very good for Dutch - English. Clearly, it has trouble with complex sentences and sentence structures. When you are writing your own input, in English for example, you obviously should write in short, clear, unambiguous sentences. And if one doesn't work, try a different input. I seem to be developing an ability to provide input that GT can handle.

However, as I mentioned elsewhere, the feedback I provide to GT (they request corrections) has had no effect. About a year ago, I pointed out the problem GT has with translating "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog." to Dutch "De quick brown fox jumps over de luie hond." Surprisingly, it does ok with other colours of foxes. I provided that correction about a year ago, to no avail.

But I find it extremely useful in learning Dutch, and use it a lot.
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Iversen
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 Message 1228 of 3959
11 August 2009 at 10:01pm | IP Logged 
I haven't used Google Translate systematically so I'm not in a position to say whether it generally is better or worse for certain language combinations than for others. But I don't feel that it is decisively worse at translating from Serbian to Danish than it is from Serbian to English, which is a much more common combination. And that's surprising.

But the kinds of errors it makes is also surprising. I have made some experiments with it for other threads on this forum, and I have also occasionally used it to find an expression for something or to give me a suggestion for something that could be checked on the internet. I have noticed two very common and very idiotic errors. The first is that it often forget about negations. If there is anything in a language that any translator should be able to recognize it must be the negations and 'negative pronouns' because it is such a common phenomenon in the language. The other thing I find irritating is that it simply ignores words which it doesn't understand - in that situation it could at least have the decency to write *** or something else so that I knew that I had to take action myself. Now I may overlook something important just because that silly thing won't admit that it has problems. As I said, it is becoming far too human.

In spite of all this I must say that I'm amazed that it is possible at all to make a translation between Serbian and Danish where most sentences are not only comprehensible, but also fairly close to the meaning of the original. And this has just taken a few years to accomplish.

-------

EDIT: I have just tried some ENG ---> DU translations:

There is something called Google in this world --->
Er is iets heet Google in deze wereld

There is a company called Google in this world --->
Er is een bedrijf genaamd Google in deze wereld

but then again ...

There is a sweet little thing called Google in this world ---->
Er is een lief klein ding heet Google in deze wereld

Is there a tendency for Google to do better with fairly concrete words, and less well with half-empty 'function' words? In that case the top-notch programmers at Goggle should do something about it, even if it means teaching the sweet little thing some grammar.


Edited by Iversen on 12 August 2009 at 1:03am

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tommus
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 Message 1229 of 3959
12 August 2009 at 12:01am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
even if it means learning the sweet little thing some grammar.

Teaching.

However, I notice that Dutch uses leren to mean both learn and teach, whereas in English, they are two different concepts and words. Is it common in other languages to have one word that means both teach and learn?
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Iversen
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 Message 1230 of 3959
12 August 2009 at 1:05am | IP Logged 
I had first written "even if it means learning some grammar", then I added "the sweet little thing", and then the whole thing was suddenly wrong... But the reason that I didn't spot the error may very well be that the same word is used for both 'teaching' and 'learning' in Danish.

Edited by Iversen on 12 August 2009 at 8:41pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1231 of 3959
12 August 2009 at 7:46pm | IP Logged 
The learning logs have been a big succes, - leave your log just for 24 hours and your log is likely to sink down to page two. Leave it for a week and others forget all about it because it lies buried under a thick layer of sediments, and you need a team of qualified submarine archeologists to locate it again. But now I'm back after long 18 hours, and I have got an idea: I'm going to commemorate one of Danish dialects. Generally they are moribund, some more than others, and even those that have survived are generally just a bleak version of what you could hear 100 years ago. I haven't tried to learn to speak them (though I might be able to imitate some of them), so below I will make ordinary translations into 'Rigsdansk' and hyperliteral translations into English.

I will mention one grammatical pecularity: like most Jutish dialects Synnejysk uses a prepositioned free definite article just like English. I have marked the articles that are different for 'nornmal' Danish articles. Besides some Jutish dialects one have one gender, while standard Danish has two and some insular dialects three.

So let's have a look at "Synnejysk" (Southern Jutish). There is of course a club that purports to safegurd this part of our cultural legacy:

Æ Synnejysk Forening
Den sønderjydske forening
The Southernjutish Association

Stiftet tæ æ bevarls af æ synnejysk sproch å kultue
Stiftet til bevarelsen af det sønderjydske sprog og kultur
Founded to the preservation of the Southernjutish language and culture

Æ Synnejysk Forening bløw stiftet den 27. januar 2000.
Den Sønderjyske Forening blev stiftet den 27. januar 2000.
The Southernjutish Association was founded the 27. January 2000.

Vi æ manne som æ bløwn træt af at olt for manne snakke rigsdansk,
Vi er mange som er blevet trætte af at alt for mange snakker rigsdansk,
We are many who are gotten tired of that all too many talk StateDanish

selvom de æ synnejye å de ka snak æ sproch.
selv om de er sønderjyder og de kan tale sproget.
eventhough they are SouthernJutes and they can speak the language

For at voss sproch it ska udø ind for de næste ti åe,
For at vores sprog ikke skal uddø inden for de næste ti år,
For that our language not shall die-out in for the next ten years,

væ vi kæmp for at de næste generatione it begynde å snak rigsdansk som hoejsproch.
vil vi kæmpe for at de næste generationer ikke begynder at snakke rigsdansk som højsprog.
will we fight for that the next generations not begin to talk StateDanish as high-language


MOJN   (<---- both hello and goodbye, used all the way through the Low German territory - and used even by Southern-Jutish 'StateDanish' speaking persons including my own family)

-------

EDIT: eh, I forgot to mention a Synnejysk tradition: the famous Synnejyske KAFFEBORD!!!! ("coffee table"). According to this source there should at least be 16 different cookies and cakes. And you should taste all of them in order not to insult the hostess. And to avoid errors (and garbled cakes) all the receipts on that page are translated into common Danish, because...

Men te I itt ska tæi fæilå jet beele kåe chen fåvansk, hæ vi såt æ obbskræude æuve e almintle dansk.



Edited by Iversen on 13 August 2009 at 11:52am

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Iversen
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 Message 1232 of 3959
13 August 2009 at 12:41am | IP Logged 
IT: In questo momento sto guardando il programma "Passaggio al Ovest" (Raiuno), dove si spiega come la invenzione della lavorazione dei metalli avrebbe potuto prodursi. Questo è veramente un'ottima serie. E mentre io scrivo questo, si è cambiato di soggetto - ora si visita Kolkata (precedentemente chiamata Calcutta) in India dove vivono 14-16 millioni di abitanti. Non ho visitato questa città.

GR: Πριν διάβασα μερικά άρθρα από τη Βικιπαιδεια ελληνική για διαφορετικά είδη μύθολογικούς πλάσματα: κυκλώπες (εκ των οποίων υπάρχουν τρεις όρους), χίμαιρες, την σφιγγα που φέρουν και το ιπτάμενο άλογο Πήγασος. Πράγματι, υπάρχουν άνθρωποι οι οποίοι έχουν διαφορετικές ομάδες γονιδίων σε διαφορετικά όργανα, οι οπoíες είναι επίσης γνωστές ως χίμαιρες. Υπήρξαν γυναίκες που ήταν κοντά στο να κατηγορηθεί για απαγωγή ανηλίκου επειδή είχαν γενετική οποία ήταν ασυμβίβαστη με τα παιδιά τους. Αλλά και σε άλλα μέρη από αυτά είχαν άλλες κληρονομικές. Είναι άκεφος: γεια σας κ. Τζόουνς και το αριστερό χέρι του.

----------

I have been watching "Passaggio a l'Ovest" at Raiuno, - first something about the invention of metallurgy, then something about the Indian metropolis Kolkata (which is far too big for comfort - 14-16 mio poor people and 14-16 billionaires). Before that I read something about Greek fable creatures, including 3 kinds of cyclopes, chimairas, a Greek sfinx and the winged horse Pegasos. Which reminded me of something I once saw in TV about people who had different genes in different parts of their bodies. In some cases women were accused of kidnapping because they at a first glance didn't have compatible genes with their own children. Spooky! Goodday Mrs. Jones and her left hand.

Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2009 at 10:53am



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