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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 257 of 3959
07 February 2009 at 9:04am | IP Logged 
Ja, dat moet leuk zijn. Mijn hobbys zijn muziek, sporten en tuinieren. De Astronomie trekt me niet zo aan hoewel ik de sterren erg mooi vind en beelden van de planeten enz. Jij en Iversen zijn behoorlijk intellectueel!!!!!!!

Edited by Jar-ptitsa on 07 February 2009 at 9:05am

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 258 of 3959
08 February 2009 at 3:20pm | IP Logged 
was ist hier passiert???????? Ich habe früher ein Antwort von Fasulye gelesen, was jetzt verschwunden ist!!!!!

what is happened here???????? before I've read a reply from fasulye which is disappeared now!!!!!!!!!

A person has deleted it?
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Iversen
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 Message 259 of 3959
08 February 2009 at 11:53pm | IP Logged 
In principle you can't delete a post in the middle of a thread, and Fasulye most definitely is still among us, so maybe you are just looking for the post in a wrong place?

And now for a bit of Tagalog (I apologize to any resident Philippinos here):



DA: Bortset fra det, så lovede jeg at publicere mit verbum-ark for Tagalog når jeg kom hjem, og det gør jeg så - selv om interessen for Tagalogske verber måske er behersket blandt mine ærede læsere. Men det er for princippernes skyld at disse verber interesserer mig. Sammenskrivningen er baseret på Lonely Planet's Filipino, "English-Tagalog and Tagalog English Dictionary" by Maria Odulio de Guzman samt "Conversational Tagalog" by Rufino Alejandro (bemærk de spanskklingende navne!). Disse er alle korte og populære fremstillinger af systemet, men jeg har endnu ikke haft tid til at skaffe en rigtig grammatik for filipino alias tagalog.

Det man især bemærker er at systemet er baseret på affixer, der sommetider er der og sommetider ikke er der, og sommetider sidder de foran eller midt inde i et andet præfix, eller de kan også sidde som postfixer. For at holde rede på alt det har jeg farvet hver type element med sin egen private farve, og i løbet af denne proces er jeg stødt på nogle ulogiske ting, for ikke at tale om huller i beskrivelserne.

Grundlæggende er der tale om et system baseret på aspekt snarere end tid, og betegnelser som 'perfect' etc. er derfor egentlig blot en rest fra en spansk-påvirket grammatisk tradition. Der er en infinit form (som kaldes infintiv, men ordet dækker ikke helt). SÅ er der en 'finit' form - ofte fortidig, en 'infinit' form - ofte, men ikke nødvendigvis nutidig, samt en 'hypotetisk' form, der ofte betegner fremtidige forhold. På tværs af dette går der en skelnen mellem aktive og passive former, der hver har deres typiske affikser, -um- ved de aktive, -in ved de passive. Hvor mag- og pa-grupperne hører hjemme, ved jeg endnu ikke. Jeg har tidligere citeret Lonely P's ekspempler med 'ang' og 'ng' som markører for fokus/ikke-fokus, så det vil jeg ikke gentage her, men fokus indgår i mekanikken her. Jeg har også bemærket mig at selv de formodet finitte verbalformer kan optræder som adjektivske bestemmelser med en 'forbinder' "na":

bahay na nasunog: house that was burned
bahay na nasusunog: house that is burning
bahay na masusunog: house that will be burned (maybe, - <-- min tilføjelse)

'Infinitiv' af 'at brænde' er "masunog". Man bemærker at der er et præfix 'ma' (grønt her), der sommetider hedder 'na', og så er der et reduplikations-element (rødt), der her er "su". Det er normalt dannet ud fra den første stavelse i roden af verbet. I -um ser man det sjove, at reduplikationselementet i alle former undtagen den hypotetiske kløves af præfikset. Skemaet har yderligere nogle blå forstavelser, der tilsyneladende går forud for roden i -in-verberne, hvis det er der, og derudover også i pa-verberne. I den sidste gruppe -in-verber er det ikke redublikationselementet, men den blå forstavelse der kløves af reduplikationselementet, der ellers formodes at markere verbalrodens start.

Det der er tilovers efter at jeg har malet resten blåt, rødt og grønt har jeg malet sort, - det plus det røde danner vistnok en slags verbalrod, men denne kan meget vel være afledt af f.eks. substantiver. Ordgrænserne er meget fleksible på tagalog.

Jeg vil yderligere tilføje at der afgjort ikke ser ud til at være enighed om den grammatiske beskrivelse af Tagalog. Tag for eksempel "ay", som i "Turista ako" versus "Ako ay turista". Guzman - der nok afspejler en traditional analyse - anser "ay" for en slags ubøjeligt verbum, der har en virkning på ordstillingen når det benyttes (man mindes at russisk ligeliedes kan undvære 'at være' i nutid). Alejandro taler om det som en 'ligatur' (ligesom 'na' ('ng')), mens Wikipedia slår syv kors for sig og blot siger at det er dims der forårsager omvendt ordstillin, - Tagalog har grundlæggende ordstillingen VSO, men med "ay" SVO. Heldigvis skal jeg ikke lære at tale det, men det er interessant at se en så eksotisk mekanik.

----------

While still in Manila I promised to publish my Tagalog verb sheet at my return. Maybe my readers are less than interested in the Tagalog verbal system, but it reflects some very interesting principles. The compilation is based on information in Lonely Planet's Filipino, English-Tagalog and Tagalog English Dictionary by Maria Odulio de Guzman and Conversational Tagalog by Rufino Alejandro (note the Spanish-sounding names!). These are all short popular accounts without scientific pretentions, but I have not yet had time to get a real grammar of Tagalog/Filipino grammar.

The remarkable thing is that the system is based on affixes, that sometimes are there and sometimes not, and sometimes they sit in the middle of another prefix or at the end of the whole thing. To get things sorted out properly I have coloured each type of element with its own colour, and during this process I have noted not only some lacunes, but also several inconsistencies which I have tried to correct.

Fundamentally the system is based on aspect rather than tense, but as a reflection of a Spanish-based grammatical description the tense names linger on: there is an infinitive (not exactly the same as our infitive), an 'unfinished' form (often about the past), a 'finished' form (often, but not necessarily about the present) and a 'hypothetical' form (often with futuric meaning). Across these aspects there is a differentiation of 'active' forms and 'passive' forms. The first are typically in the -mu-group, the second in the -in-group, and then I don't really know how to place the mag- and -pa-groups. I have earlier quoted Lonely P's examples with 'ang' and 'ng' as markers of focus, and I won't repeat that here. I have also noted that even the presumed finite verbal forms can be used adjectivally with a 'connective' "na" (example from Alejandro):

bahay na nasunog: house that was burned
bahay na nasusunog: house that is burning
bahay na masusunog: house that will be burned (maybe, - <-- my addition)

The infinitive is "masunog". Note that there is a prefix "ma" (green here), which sometimes is "na", and then there is also a reduplication-element (red), here "su", which normally is based upon the first syllable of the verbal root. In the -um-group you see a funny thing: the reduplicationelement is split by the insertion of the -um-infix . Apart from that there are some blue prefixes in the system, and in the last -in-group you can see that this prefix is split the reduplicationselement, which otherwise presumably marks the beginning of the verbal root.

The things that don't get green, red or blue in the table are coloured black, and in combination with the red element they are supposed to be the verbroots, - which may in their turn be based on for instance substantives. Tagalog is very flexible when it comes to word classes.

It is apparent that there isn't much agreement in the description of Tagalog. As an example take "ay", as in "Turista ako" or "Ako ay turista" (both means "I'm a tourist"). Guzman takes the traditional view that "ay" is some kind of verbal particle, with an effect on word order. Alejandre uses the word 'ligature' (also used about 'na' (-ng), that is used in the structure 'Substantive na Adjective'). Wikipedia rejects any talk of verbal character and speaks about a word order-changing thingy. Tagalog generally is based on the order VSO, but with 'ay' that changes to SVO. At least I don't have to learn to speak this language, but it is interesting to see something a bit exotic once in a while.


Edited by Iversen on 22 April 2012 at 9:19pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 260 of 3959
08 February 2009 at 11:57pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
was ist hier passiert???????? Ich habe früher ein Antwort von Fasulye gelesen, was jetzt verschwunden ist!!!!!

what is happened here???????? before I've read a reply from fasulye which is disappeared now!!!!!!!!!

A person has deleted it?


Keine Aufregung, Jar-ptisa! Ich habe meinen eigenen Post selbst entfernt. War auch eigentlich an dich gerichtet. Die Freiheit habe ich, etwas wieder zu entfernen. (Ich hatte etwas über meine Hobbys geschrieben...)

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 09 February 2009 at 3:10am

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Fasulye
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 Message 261 of 3959
09 February 2009 at 12:06am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
In principle you can't delete a post in the middle of a thread, and Fasulye most definitely is still among us, so maybe you are just looking for the post in a wrong place?

DA: Bortset fra det, så lovede jeg at publicere mit verbum-ark for Tagalog når jeg kom hjem, og det gør jeg så - selv om interessen for Tagalogske verber måske er behersket blandt mine ærede læsere. Men det er for princippernes skyld at disse verber interesserer mig. Sammenskrivningen er baseret på Lonely Planet's Filipino, "English-Tagalog and Tagalog English Dictionary" by Maria Odulio de Guzman samt "Conversational Tagalog" by Rufino Alejandro (bemærk de spanskklingende navne!).

Apart from that, in Manila I promised to publish my Tagalog verb sheet at my return. Maybe my readers are less than interested in Tagalog verbas, but they reflect som interesting principles. The compilation is based on information in Lonely Planet's Filipino, English-Tagalog and Tagalog English Dictionary by Maria Odulio de Guzman and Conversational Tagalog by Rufino Alejandro (note the Spanish-sounding names!)

LINK (to a new window):
Tagalog verbs


So that's your travel language Wanderlust! This language is defintely not related to the languages I have learned. Interesting how you write your konjugation tables. Yes, indeed, Filipino people often have Spanish names!

It's a pity that I haven't yet learned Danish, so I will have to read and understand your English translation. But to be confronted with this language gives me inspiration for the future. My mother always said to me: "Du sollst dich nicht verzetteln." That means that you should not do too many different things at the same time. Therefore I stay focused on my own language learning project or projects.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 09 February 2009 at 7:19am

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Iversen
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 Message 262 of 3959
09 February 2009 at 1:11pm | IP Logged 
LAT: In exordio fili isti scripsi intentionem meam esse semper in lingva scribere quae argumenta magis apta sit. Dicta res no secutus est quia nunc in animo habeo de singularitatibus nudibus scribere, id quod omnino romanis veteris non comprehensibile fuisset. "Big bang" singularitas est, sed hodie singularitates modo sub forma foraminium negrorum extanta sunt ... se non sub forma singularitatum nudium de nonnullibus physicii postulata. Cosmos de corporibus magnissimi ponderis sed minimi voluminis plenus est quae foramines nigri nominantur quia nulli rei, ne luci quidem permittentur ex orbe 'eventium' effugere (notio ponderis lucis romanibus incomprehensibilis fuisset!). Autem Hans Seyfert (cui genus nebulae stellarum nominabatur) secundum Scientificam Americanam proposuit posibile essere quod stellae pesantissimae cum distributione inaequa molis displodentes singularitates 'nudes' relinquerent, et anno domini 1979 Eardley ac Smarr calculationem proposuerunt quae possibilitatem creationis singularitatis nudis demonstrabat, et alii credunt singularitates per lapsum rapidum stellae oriri possunt. Tamen nondum talis singularis observabatur... sed Physicii observationem adhuc esperant. ENG (quote): "For example, when physicists applied general relativity to Earth's orbit around the sun, they would in effect have to make allowance for the possibility that a singularity somewhere in the universe could emit a random gravitational pulse and send our planet flying off into deep space." Istud mihi non placet!

ROM: Am găsit un site cu articole ştiinţifice în mai multe limbi: chineză, Germană, olandeză, spaniolă ... şi română:iată-l. Am citit un articol despre particule elementare, ca de pilda cuarci (quarks) care existeau la 6 variante: up, won, charm, strange, top şi bottom (sus, jos, farmec, ciudat, culme şi fund). Cu aceste particule se poate clădi tot fel de hadroni: barioni şi mezoni, dar nu leptoni ca de pilda electronul. Tot aceea este explicat la fel de o programa de televisune pentru copii, iar continutul ştiinţific da impresia de-a fi corectă (dar eu nu sunt expert de fizică nucleară - poftim nu-mi crezi). Şi se poate învăţa aici cel puţin câteva cuvinte, care nu sunt utilizate în literatura normală - numai la literature ştiinţifică-fantastică.

-----------

In the beginning of this thread I promised to write everything in the most relevant language, but sorry - I couldn't resist the temptation to write something about nuclear physics and cosmology in Latin.

The problem is that I have read an interesting article on the homepage of Scientific American about 'naked singularities', i.e. singularities in time-space that aren't surrounded by the usual event-horizon that you find around every black hole (it is the limit from within which not even light can escape). Black holes arise whenever a sufficiently heavy star collapses, but Seyfert and others have suggested that in some cases with an extremely inhomogeneous mass distribution a (probably shortlived) 'naked' singularity could arise, and it has also been suggested that a collapse with extreme speed could have this outcome. No such object has yet been found, but the physicists and cosmologists are eagerly waiting for one to be found - its behaviour might be quite unpredictable and fun. For instance a gravity jet from a naked singularity might hurl the Earth right out of its orbit. Or as suggsted by John Earman: "..green slime and lost socks might emerge from them. They are places of magic, where science fails". Frankly, I don't really like those perspectives.

Besides I have found a homepage with stuff about elementary particles in many languages, including Romanian - so I took that as a chance to write some Romanian. Among other things the 6 kinds of quarks are mentioned. The whole thing is explained in a very pedagogical manner that may suggest an intended audience consisting mainly of school children - but the scientific content seems sound enough, and you can learn some words that you wouldn't find in ordinary boring literature, though maybe in science-fiction.


Edited by Iversen on 10 February 2009 at 6:40am

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Fasulye
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 Message 263 of 3959
09 February 2009 at 1:23pm | IP Logged 
A singularity theory is rather unknown to me, so I first need a translation of the Latin text to know where it is about. After having understood the scientific meaning I can try to understand - at least partly - the Latin original. Or has "singularity" to do with black holes? At the moment I cannot really place this theory.

So I just wait...for the translation.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 09 February 2009 at 1:24pm

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Iversen
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 Message 264 of 3959
09 February 2009 at 1:57pm | IP Logged 
.

(sometimes the software of this forum transforms a minor correction into a whole copy of the post which can't be deleted, escpecially not if there is a later post in the thread - that's why I have left this ugly post)

Edited by Iversen on 09 February 2009 at 2:16pm



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