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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2121 of 3959
08 November 2010 at 12:36am | IP Logged 
GER: Ich bin gerade zurück von einer viertägigen Reise zu München, Trento, Bolzano, Innsbruck und nochmals München. Ich hätte vermutlich ein Internet Café oder so was finden können, wenn ich gesucht hätte, aber dafür war ich mit touristischen Aktivitäten zu beschäftigt.

DA: Jeg kørte med nattog fra Århus til København for at kunne nå et morgenfly 6.45 - og så var det aflyst! I stedet blev jeg sendt derned via Berlin Tegel, men iberegnet en times ekstra forsinkelse fra Berlin til München betød det, at jeg kun havde 3 timer i München.

GER: Und die habe ich auf einem Besuch in Hellabrun Zoo gespendet. Schönes Wetter uzw. Von München bin ich mit einem EC-zug nach Trient gefahren...

IT: .. dove ho dovuta constatare che un gruppo terrorista dal settore pubblcitaria a preso il controllo di 103 stazione ferroviarie Italiane, riempiendole con tende enorme dappertutto che gridano e cantano e fanno chiasso tanto da fare tutta stagione in uno di questi luoghi infortunati tutta insopportabile. La mia prima reazzione fu che questa sarebbe la mia ultima visità all'Italia (che ho sempre visitato utilizzando le sue eccelente ferroviarie). Ma fortunamente ho discoperta il prossimo dia a Bolzano che una stazione può vendere la sua anima al diavolo senza trasformare tutta la bottega sua in una stanza di tortura. Le gestione della stazione della sfortunata città di Trento non hanno capito questo.

Venerdì 5 di novembre, durante la mia ultima visita a Trento (dato la situazione alla stazione), ho visitato il splendido Castello di Buonconsiglio e il Museo Tridentino delle Scienze Naturali. Poi ho preso un treno locale a Bolzano ove ho visitato il Museo Archeologico con il famoso 'uomo dal ghiaccio', meglio conosciuto come Ötzi. Ho comprato un piccolo libro in Italiano sopra la sua discoperta, pieno di parole specializzate archeologice. Ma questo non fu il mio solo acquisto: ho comprato anche un numero speciale di "Le Scienza" sopra la nozione della fine, "Viaggi del Gusto" (turismo gastronomico - il che gli tedeschi chimano "Schlemmerreisen") a tre versioni diverse di "Focus": "Focus - L'enciclopedia della curiosità", "Focus Extra" sulla preistoria e "Focus Storia", dove si racconta per esempio come Trento fu eletto per un consiglio papale - Il 'Palazzo Magno' del Castello Buonconsiglio fu totalmente ricostruito per questo evento.

Avevo una sola notte a Trento, e già al 5/11 ho continuato il viaggio a ..

GER Innsbruck, wo ich volle zwei Nächte verblieb. Damit hatte ich ein Tag (Samstag) um diese Stadt zu erforschen. Und ich habe zuerst die Hofburg besucht, wo es einst ein Gigantensaal gab ..ja, den gibt es immer noch, aber die prüde Maria Theresia mochte nicht überdimensionierte nackte Griechen in ihrem Schloß so sie hat den Saal in einem zierlichen Familienzimmer umgestaltet - obwohl ein Familienzimmer in kaiser(in)lichen Großformat!

Danach das unerwartet inhaltsreichen Volkskunstmuseum und die traditionsreiche Hofkirche mit seiner lebensgroßen Herrscherstatuen aus Bronze. Davon zu Fuß zum Alpenzoo, der innerhalb seiner Grenzen ein Höhenunterschied von mehr als 100 Meter aufweist. Wieder herunter und noch Besuchen in zwei Museen - und Einkaufe um ein Vorrat für Sonntag zu haben, wo ich um 7.39 mit einem ICE-Zug zurück zu München gefahren bin.

Hier hatte ich gut drei Stunden ehe ich zum Flughafen fahren mußte, und ich habe zum ersten Mal das Stadtmuseum und das Paläontologischen Museum gesehen.

Ich habe natürlich auch so einiges auf Deutsch gekauft: "Tierparkfreund" (das Magazin von Hellabrun Zoo), "Natur und Kosmos", "Science Illustrated" (aber deutschsprachig), "Spektrum der Wissenschaft" and "Wissen" vom Spiegel. Ich werde voraussichtlich mehr über die Inhälte dieser Schriften in den nächsten Tagen schreiben.

-------

I have just returned from a modest 4 day trip to München ('Munich'), Trento, Bolzano Innsbruck and back to München ('Munich'). It began with an unwelcome surprise, namely the cancellation of my morgen flight which cost me three hours out of planned six in München ('Munich'). So I only had time to visit the excellent Hellabrun zoo. But that same day I was in for an even worse shock: when I arrived at Trento railway station it was full of screaming and howling and singing screens everywhere, and to add insult to injury a triumphant text announced that the terrorist group responsible for this infamy had polluted 103 Italian railway stations. So my first reaction was that this meant the end to any travelling by me in Italy. However I went to Bolzano next day and discovered that although they also had sold their immortal soul to Satan for filthy lucre they had at least turned down the noise level to something approaching tolerable. But now I don't know how many of the 103 infortunate Italian towns have lost their railway stations to the commercial terrorists. Poor Italy, and poor me.

After that I continued to Innsbruck, where I spend a full day running around until my feet started to hurt (nay, beyond that). And today (Sunday, day 4 ) I first went by ICE to München ('Munich'), where I had three hours and visited two museums, and then I returned to Denmark by plane.

I have described in the Italian and German sections above which magazines etc. I bought, and I won't repeat that here, but just mention one small acquisition: a book about the famous Ötzi, who was found by Austrian mountaneers just 90 meters inside Italy, so now he is shown at the splendid new Archeological Museum of Bolzano, and I have seen him there - he looks like brown sugar candy. With an age of more than 5000 years he is not only exceptionally well preserved, but also much older than even the Egyptian mummies. And the archeologists have not nearly finished analyzing him and all his paraphernalia. For instance he carried the world's first leggings ever. And a bow longer than himself.


Edited by Iversen on 08 November 2010 at 8:32pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2122 of 3959
08 November 2010 at 8:17am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Ma questo non fu il mio solo acquisto: ho comprato anche un numero speciale di "Le Scienza" sopra la nozione della fine, "Viaggi del Gusto" (turismo gastronomico - il che gli tedeschi chimano "Schlemmerreisen") a tre versioni diverse di "Focus": "Focus - L'enciclopedia della curiosità", "Focus Extra" sulla preistoria e "Focus Storia", dove si racconta per esempio come Trento fu eletto per un consiglio papale - Il 'Palazzo Magno' del Castello Buonconsiglio fu totalmente ricostuito per questo evento.

Ich habe natürlich auch so einiges auf Deutsch gekauft: "Tierparkfreund" (das Magazin von Hellabrun Zoo), "Natur und Kosmos", "Science Illustrated" (aber deutschsprachig), "Spektrum der Wissenschaft" and "Wissen" vom Spiegel. Ich werde voraussichtlich mehr über die Inhälte dieser Schriften in den nächsten Tagen schreiben.


ITA: Hai veramente comprato interessante reviste nell'italiano e tedesco. Questi "Focus Extra" e "Focus Storia" sono anche a venta alla stazione di Düsseldorf. "Science Illustrated" e "Wissen" non ho mai letto. "La Scienza" non vedo qui nella Germania.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 08 November 2010 at 8:31am

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Iversen
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 Message 2124 of 3959
09 November 2010 at 12:25am | IP Logged 
In der Zeitschrift "Wissen" gibt es natürlich auch einen Artikel über das Sprachenlernen, aber es ist nicht besonders spektakulär - ich habe das meiste auch anderswo gesehen. Allerdings gibt es eine einzige Information, die ich etwas unerwartet empfand:

"Bei Bilingualen", erklärt Heiner Böttger, Englishdidaktiker an der Katholischen Universität Eichstatt, "konnten wir nachweisen, dass jede neue Sprache im selbven Hirnareal andockt wie die Erstsprachen". Bei Monolingualen hingegen wandert jede neue Fremdsprache in eine neue Hirnregion. Böttger wirbt deshalb für bilingualen Kindergärten und Grundschulen."

Wir haben hier gerade dieses Problem irgendwann diskutiert, aber soweit ich erinnere ohne diese Möglichkeit zu erwähnen.

Interessant, aber nicht unerwartet ist auch, daß es hier bestätigt werde, daß "beim Lernen weiterer fremdsprachen nützt Latein oft herzlich wenig. Wer etwa Spanisch lernen will, dem hilft mehr, wenn er in der Schule vorher Französisch hatte.."*

---

On of my German magazines from my last trip Southwards bears the proud name "Wissen" (= knowledge), and of course there is an article about language learning. Most of the content is something I already knew - such as the dictum that having learnt French beforehand helps more than having learned Latin. No wonder, - actually modern languages have much in common in their vocabulary and way of thinking which couldn't possibly be shared by Classical or even Medieval Latin. And Latin pedagogics has traditionally been more orientated towards passive skills than towards active use of the language.

However there is one new information in the article, namely that new languages according to a German researcher are located together with your earlier languages including your native language if you are bilingual or more. But if you have grown up as a monoglot every new language has to find a new place to settle in the brain, according to this scholar. Quite interesting, and as far as I remember not an answer we discussed when the subject was last debated here. But I would like to have this confirmed by more than one scholar, preferable with a reference to some actual brain scans.


* "Beim lernen..." etc: this is actually a funny sentence. You can have a whole sentence as (logical) subject, but then it normally contains a nominal interrogative pronoun (or an adjectival one inside a nomimal phraze). Here the pronoun is "wenn" which could be seen as a conditional (originally temporal) constitutent of the subordinate phrase. But this doesn't hinder the phrase from functioning as the subject of the whole sentence, i.e. in a role which normally is seen as nominal.

Edited by Iversen on 10 November 2010 at 3:31pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2125 of 3959
11 November 2010 at 11:47pm | IP Logged 
I recorded a new video yesterday, and I edited it today and put in on Youtube (even though I heard myself say some rather gross errors). It is somewhat different from both the language learning series and the speak-a-language series in that it is a travelogue about my recent trip to München-Trento-Bolzano-Innsbruck (see message 2121 above), but it is a natural continuation of those in that it is multilingual - in English- Danish - German - Italian - German and back to English.

Besides I have been gluing almost 100 photos into my 41. photo album and that also takes time. AF: Maar ek het ten minste een podcast geluister in Afrikaans (die een oor "Die tale wat ons praat", waar hulle gepraat oor aanspreekformen en beantwoord vrae van luisteraars. Wanneer ek het ander dinge om te doen, is dit eintlik prakties geen video te hê nie, maar net 't klank.

BA I: Saya juga membuat beberapa senarai kata dalam Bahasa.

I have promised to write something about the magazines I have bought, but that will have to wait - I have to study now.


Edited by Iversen on 11 November 2010 at 11:48pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2126 of 3959
14 November 2010 at 3:32pm | IP Logged 
I just realised that I have forgotten to make my monthly summery. OK, it shall be done, but not today.

I have been visiting my mother, bringing along Eamonn ó Dónaill's Irish grammar (in the Teach yourself series). I noticed that it was mentioned with accolades in the thread about Irish versus English, but I'm not too happy about it. Everything I need is there, probably, but it is full of irrelevant exercises and sometimes the logic is somewaht fussy, - which is fatal in a language like Irish which should be treated with the same kind of unrelenting strict logic as a sudoku. I have some printouts at home which are better organized.

Besides I brought my Indonesian LP language guide (the one with limited pronunciation directives, which in this case is an advantage), and I made my ususal three-column wordlists based on the wordlists in the back of the book, but also some on examples from the book, just with broader columns. Actually the system functions, but only with sources that contains a lot of short expressions - and language guides provide exactly that.

Finally I brought along some bilingual Afrikaans printouts, made using the fairly new Afrikaans service of Google translate. Actually I think I can understand a normal text as well as Google can, but sometimes it can solve a problem for me and sometimes it can corroborate my own readings. But it has a problem with those double negations. Take for instance this sentence:

AF: Die wat wel Afrikaans praat as hul voertaal erken prontuit dat vertalings nie hul koppie tee is nie.
DA (Google): Dem der taler afrikaans som deres sprog indrømmer rent ud, at oversættelserne er ikke deres kop te er det ikke
ENG (from Google's DA): Those who speak Afrikaans as their language acknowledge rigth a way that the translations aren't their cup of te is that not.

btw. "voertaal" should probably be something like "preferred language", but this was lost already in the Danish translation.

In another text "Dis drie uur die middag" was translated into "Det er 03:00 om eftermiddagen" = "it is 03.00 o'clock in the afternoon". No, it isn't... if anything it is 15:00 in the afternoon.

In spite of this it is nice to have this awesome tool even for Afrikaans. When do we get it for Latin?

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tractor
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 Message 2128 of 3959
14 November 2010 at 9:21pm | IP Logged 
Kuikentje wrote:
Yes the 12 and the 24h clock is confusing I think, but worser are the "half past" or "half to"
hours because you can remember the hour's number but not if the person had said half past or to: you have to
remember in which language was it said. Mostly, I read my foreign languages, but sometimes when it's spoken
this is especially difficult!!

Even more confusing are those languages with alternative systems for telling the time, for instance German and
Catalan:

04:15 = (ein) viertel nach vier = (ein) viertel fünf
04:45 = viertel vor fünf = drei viertel fünf

04:15 = un quart de cinc = les quatre i quart
04.45 = tres quarts de cinc = les cinc menys quart



Edited by tractor on 14 November 2010 at 9:50pm



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