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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
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9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 1449 of 3959
30 October 2009 at 11:44am | IP Logged 
Spurred on by a remark by Administrator I went to the internet usability site of Jakob Nielsen (who as the name suggests has Danish roots). For our administrator this site is of course relevant because he is revising the layout and inventing new features for this forum, but I got caught up in some more user oriented articles.

One is entitled "How Little Do Users Read?" - not much, it seems. It was scary reading for an a verbose multiposter at the upper end of the Zipf triangle: "Obviously, users tend to spend more time on pages with more information. However, the best-fit formula tells us that they spend only 4.4 seconds more for each additional 100 words". Ouch! Furthermore: "On an average visit, users read half the information only on those pages with 111 words or less. (...) on average, users will have time to read 28% of the words if they devote all of their time to reading. More realistically, users will read about 20% of the text on the average page". Ouch!

So..............blah blah blah blah ......... my ......blah blah blah blah .... readers ...... blah blah blah blah ..... really ............. blah blah blah blah ..... just ...... blah blah blah blah ..... see ......... blah blah blah blah ..... this .......

...... blah blah blah blah .....

and anything below this point is automatically discarded

...... blah blah blah blah ..... or maybe the readers of this forum are better than average readers? I hope so, because I couldn't accept writing as illustrated above. If people can read 1000 page novels, as most of you somehow manage to do, then you can also read a post that is 2-3 screen heights long.

The same principle applies to speech, even if you in principle understand the language. so babble babble babble and ......... blah blah blah blahthis ......... blah blah blah blah is ......... blah blah blah blah all ......... blah blah blah blah you ......... blah blah blah blah really ......... blah blah blah blah hear ......... blah blah blah blah

cut


Edited by Iversen on 30 October 2009 at 11:53am

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Captain Haddock
Diglot
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Japan
kanjicabinet.tumblr.
Joined 4904 days ago

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 Message 1450 of 3959
30 October 2009 at 12:39pm | IP Logged 
Well, Iversen, to be honest, most verbose websites don't have an actual lot of content. However, there are plenty of
sites where I will read every last word.
1 person has voted this message useful





Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 1451 of 3959
30 October 2009 at 10:01pm | IP Logged 
Og nu en dosis dansk (og engelsk og friulisk). Jeg har siddet og kigget på DR1 (Dansk TV), hvor en humorist og sanger fra Vendsyssel har hygget sig - selveste Niels Hausgaard, landskendt selv i København, men næppe i det fjernere udland. I starten af hans karriere optrådte han på nordjysk dialekt, men det kunne publikum udenfor Vendsyssel ikke forstå, så nu snakker han desværre almindelig dansk. Men han er stadigvæk underholdende (og til dem der studerer dansk: hans taler langsomt og tydeligt, hvilket må skyldes hans jyske fortid). Han fortalte blandt andet om en tysker der havde lært dansk - troede han selv - ved at gå rundt og stille spørgsmål til folk, som han i forvejen havde svaret på. Og så regnede han med at kunne stykke et forståeligt dansk sammen. Som Hausgaard sagde, de håbede alle at han ville blive ved med at komme på besøg, for underholdningsværdien var ikke helt ringe.

-----

And now for a bit of Danish and English and Friulean. I have been watching Danish TV: a show with Niels Hausgaard, a humorist and singer from the Northernmost tip of Jutland. In the beginning of his performing career he actually spoke in the Vendsyssel'ish vernacular, but now he speaks ordinary Danish because people outside Jutland also wanted to understand his subtle irony. One of his anecdotes was about a German tourist who had visited Vendsyssel many times. He had learnt Danish - he thought - by posing questions to everybody he met. He figured out that if he asked question whose answers he knew he could piece together a working knowledge of Danish. Nobody understand what he said though, but the locals all wished that he would return year after year because the entertainment value was priceless. So much for learning exclusively from exposure ...   

And now for a bit of Friulean. I don't know the dialect or language (whichever you prefer), I don't have a dictionary or grammar, and even though I have seen it before it is a long time ago. Let's go...


Al è ator cualchidun che al pense che i furlans no sedin cussì tant lavoradôrs come che a disin,
(there are?) around someone who think that the Friuleans aren't as industrious ('laborious') as they say

cun dut il timp che a passin tal bar. Nuie di plui falât, e cumò us al dimostrarai.
with (all?) the time they pass in the bar. Nothing is more wrong ('fallacious'), which I will demonstrate to you.

Cuâl isal l’aperitîf furlan par ecelence?
Which is the preferred Friulean aperitif?

Lu san ancje i claps (soredut chei claps che a son poiâts dongje di une ostarie): l’ «un par doi».
(They?) are also CLAPS (especially those CLAPS which are served in a bar ('osteria'): the "one for two"

a si sêso mai domandâts il parcè? Al è clâr: parcè che il furlan al à simpri passion di lavorâ,
Have you ever asked yourself (the) why? It is clear: because the Friulean has got a true ('simple') passion for working

e cul un par doi al lavore ancje cuant che al polse.
and with the one-for-two done at the work .. also when at the wrist (=while driking??)

Lin par ordin.
(?) .. in order.

L’un par doi (pardabon covential che us al displei?) si lu fâs cun «Gingerin» e vin blanc.
The one-for -two (wholly ('pour-de-bon-??) monasterial which shows (/displeases you??) is done with 'gingerin' and white wine.

«Un» al è il Gingerin, «doi» chei che a àn di bevi, duncje lis tacis:
"One" is the 'gingerin', "two" that which you have to drink,

si divît il Gingerin tes dôs tacis, e dopo cul vin blanc si implene chel che al reste de tace
You divide the 'gingerin' in two parts, and afterwards with the white wine you fill the rest of the glass (cup?) ('that which rests')

(e in chest câs, nol jentre se il furlan al è otimist o pessimist: la tace e va jemplade dute, no dome mieze).
(and in this case, don't (ask?) if the Friulean is an optimist or pessimist: be silent and get filled (..) only half )

....

Well, that must be enough of desecration of this rare and threathened species. If anybody out in the hyperspace could tell me how far I am from the true meaning I'll be grateful. And maybe even what those 'claps' are? Not the English kind, I hope...I'll be grateful.




Edited by Iversen on 01 November 2009 at 5:26am

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Hobbema
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United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch

 
 Message 1452 of 3959
31 October 2009 at 4:59am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
SP:

PS 2: .... and if you want to hear Sarasate's perception of the Basque language, then listen to the abrupt phrasing in his less wellknown Capricho Vasco. It is sometimes asserted that the different character of different languages also manifests itself in the music written by composers speaking those languages, - among those who not only believed firmly in this, but who also made it into a self-fuilfilling prophecy by imitating the rhythm of his native language in his music you will find the excellent Czech composer Leoš Janáček.



Well, that's an interesting statement, about the rhythms and sounds of a language influencing a composer's music. And maybe there's not a lot of places where this particular topic would pop up, except in a forum like this. :)

That's probably fodder for somebody else's dissertation, but if you take that a couple steps further....if you would say that a composer's compositional style is influenced by his language, how would that affect that appeal his music has on his native audience? Is it just nationalism, or is there something internal and innate that makes Beethoven so appealing to us (predominantly) northern europeans? At least it seems that way here in the U.S. Or what is it that makes Debussy and Saint-Saens so uniquely French?

There's no doubt that Ives and Copland are quintessentially American, and they're my favorites, while at the same time on my mp3 player I have all 9 Vaughn-Williams symphonies, Copland, Stravinsky, Ives, and Hovhaness, as well as my Pimsleur Dutch, Portuguese, and French.

But don't mind me, schizophrenia runs in my family - as well as alcoholism, but let's not open THAT can of worms....:)

Edited by Hobbema on 31 October 2009 at 5:00am

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Iversen
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 Message 1453 of 3959
31 October 2009 at 7:13pm | IP Logged 
The influence of languages on music is mostly a vague hypothesis if you take it literally.

However it is a simple fact that folk music in different parts of the world sounds differently, and that this has an influence on the music written by the classical composers (and vice-versa). WHY a certain population developed music within a certain stylistic range is mostly a matter of speculation, but with some hard facts in between. For instance it is difficult not to hear an Arabic influence on Spanish music, in particular in the South (flamenco etc.). Sometimes the popularity of a certain instrument spills over in the way music should sound, ie. the Scottish bagpape or the Norwegian hardangerfele (or the French Cavaille-Coll organ, which formed the background for the French organ chool from Franck over Widor, Vierne, Alain and others to Messiaen), but most of all it is a question of isolation: you plant a seed, and then while it grows its inbuilt characteristics become more clearly pronounced.

It is difficult to prove where language enters in this process, but it sounds logical that it does. However in the case of Sarasate it may not be necessary to take the whole tour around the sound of local Basque folk music, - a skilled composer should be able to emulate the sound of a language, just as composers can write program music about other things. And I'm fairly convinced that Sarasate did try to write a piece that sounded like Basque speech.

In the Heldenleben of Richard Strauß there is even a passage where he mocks specific Viennese critics (though without naming them in the score).


Edited by Iversen on 31 October 2009 at 7:30pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 1454 of 3959
01 November 2009 at 7:21am | IP Logged 
I woke up sneezing and decided to stay up until I get sleepy again. I noticed that in addition to ExtraLean's one more active log has been closed (BlueJays). I have spent some time checking out the other forums where several former and current members have made accounts, and it seems that one of them has turned into an exile from HTLAL for some, but only a supplementary residence for others. Hopefully this won't develop into a warlike situation with two sharply divided camps.

I intend to keep this log running, and to that end I will as my 2999'th contribution to this forum make a hyperliteral translation of some Icelandic I have lying on my table - the text about 'Bad astronomy'. Then those of you who know even less Icelandic than me may get a glimpse of the mechanics of this conservative Nordic language.

ICFyrir minn hluta ætla ég að halda HTLAL-dagbókin min í gangi eins lengi og mögulegt er, og ég ætla eins og mitt 2999'e framlag til þessa spjalli gera við yfirbokstaflega þýðingu nokkurra íslenskra síðra sem ég hef liggjandi á borðinu mínu - textanum um "Bad Astronomy'. Þannig þessir af þér sem veit minnru íslensku en ég má fá innsýn í aflfræði þessa íhaldssamt norrænu tungumáli.

Slæm stjörnufræði
bad star-knowledge

Í samfélaginu þarf ekki að leita langt til að finna slæma* stjörnufræði.
I together-companyTHE (=society) need not to search long to find bad star-knowledge (=astronomy)
I samfundet behøver (man) ikke at lede længe for at finde dårlig astronomi

Samsæriskenningar, fjölmiðlaumfjöllun**, kvikmyndagerð o.s.frv.
Conspiration-knowers, many-communication-discussioners, fast-picturers etc.
Konspirationstilhængere, mediepersoner, fotografer osv.

draga upp villandi myndir af eðli himingeimsins.
pull up (=draw) misleading pictures of kind space-emptyness-The's-Its
fremstiller vildledende billeder af arten (af) verdensrummet.

Algengast er að menn gerist óvísvitandi sekir um slæma stjörnufræði.
All-commonests is that men do-self un-knowingly guilty about bad star-knowledge.

Víðátturnar handan við lofthjúp jarðar verða nefninlega seint*** taldar hluti af okkar daglega lífi.
With-having-s-The (=the reports) attheotherside by air-depth (=beyond the atmosphere) EarthThe's (of the Earth) are name-ly late*** told part of our daily life
Meddelelserne (fra/om) hinsides luftrummet jordens (jordens atmosfære) bliver nemlig sent*** opfattet (som) part af vores daglige liv

Sú staðreynd hefur því miður gert mörgum kleift að taka sér "skáldleyfi"
This place-experience (=fact) has that-sorry (=unfortunately) done (for) many possible to take themselves "Poet's freedom"
Dette faktum har des-værre gjort (for) mange muligt at tage sig "digterisk frihed"

á öllu því sem snertir stjörnufræði og nýta sér þannig fáfræði almennings.
for everything that touches star-knowledg, and (to) use (for) themselves thus little-knowledgeTHE all-peopleTHE-its (of the public)
mht. at det som angår astronomi og således (at) udnytte befolkningens uvidenhed.

Þessi vefur er nýjung á Stjörnufræðivefnum
This web is new-ing at star-knowledge-webTHE
Dette net(sted) er fornyelse for astronomy-nettet

og er ætlað að árétta vitleysur þær sem birtast okkur reglulega.
and is intended to indicate sense-lessnesses their which pop-up for-us regularly
og er tilsigtet (=har til opgave) at påpege tåbelighederne deres som viser-sig for-os regelmæssigt

Did you get it? The meaning is in brief as follows:

Society doesn't have to look far to find bad astronomy. Conspiration-theorists, journalists and photographers et al. paint misleading pictures of the Univers. Mostly these people make themselves unwittingly guiilty in bad astronomy. Information about things beyond the atmosphere of the Earth are seen as part of our daily life. This fact has unfortunately made many claim 'poetical licence' for everything that has anything to do with astronomy and they thereby exploit the ignorance of the public. This site is an innovation within the astronomy-web and is intended to point out their mad ideas, which pop up regularly.
   
* 'slem' in Danish has either a a moral note or it is used exclamative - "det var slemt!")
** 'miðla' has survived in Danish in the word 'formidle' (communicate)
*** "seint" in this sentence is somewhat mysterious - maybe just a reference to the present?


Edited by Iversen on 01 November 2009 at 7:29am

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Hobbema
Senior Member
United States
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Speaks: English*
Studies: Portuguese, French, Dutch

 
 Message 1455 of 3959
01 November 2009 at 7:57am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
The influence of languages on music is mostly a vague hypothesis if you take it literally.

However it is a simple fact that folk music in different parts of the world sounds differently, and that this has an influence on the music written by the classical composers (and vice-versa). WHY a certain population developed music within a certain stylistic range is mostly a matter of speculation, but with some hard facts in between.


The engineer in me likes to over analyze things, so I take your point. Were we to try to make some type of quantitative comparison between language of a certain culture and its folk music, then it probably wouldn't be very interesting.

I don't debate that folk music is diverse around the globe; this is wonderful and fascinating and a source of study all its own.

And of course you are correct about the inspiration of folk music on classical composers. Percy Grainger went around England making wax cylinder recordings of traditional folk songs and wrote music based on those, Copland and Ives both used traditional American hymn tunes in their music. There are others, and per your suggestion I will look forward to listening to Sarasate. Honestly, I had not heard of him or his music before.

But my thoughts about the connection between language and classical (or folk) music come from the same desire to learn and understand other cultures, and to be a world citizen. From your Danish Carl Nielsen and Grieg and Sibelius in Scandinavia, to Janáček and Smetana in the Czech, from Ives and Copland in America, and Harrison using eastern instruments in western compositions. There of course are the Russians, and I have no idea what's going on in the far east. Or south of the equator for that matter.

So my thoughts as I go through this rant are that I agree with you that the connection between language sounds and patterns and music...we probably don't need to get into that too deeply. And yes, my musings here are taking me to where my own interests go. (on your log, for that matter). And yes also, your speculation on the music of Sarasate and the influence of Basque or Spanish speech could very well have a connection. That's a cool observation on your part, and I will check that out.

And so I will offer something of my own, if you haven't already heard them. For wonderful American compositions based (in part) on traditional American songs in English, listen to Copland's "Appalachian Spring", "The Tender Land", or "Rodeo". If you are into anything contemporary Charles Ives' "Three Places in New England" will do, but his stuff is pretty dissonant.

American English tunes with American English phrasing into orchestral music. Good stuff.

Edited by Hobbema on 01 November 2009 at 8:00am

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4839 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
Personal Language Map

 
 Message 1456 of 3959
01 November 2009 at 1:08pm | IP Logged 
(summary moved)

Edited by Iversen on 07 June 2010 at 2:50pm



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