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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Fasulye
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 Message 193 of 3959
17 January 2009 at 10:52am | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:

I don't know what's an ergative language, but I guess that it's connected at the verb can be transitive and intransitive, and that the subject / object can exchange themself. In the first examples, the wood splits, it's the subject of the verb "split" but in the other example, "I split the wood" the verb remains "split" but now the wood's the object. I can think of other examples: the oven heats / I heat the oven, although very few ones (If this is ergative, possibly I'm absolutly wrong LOL!!!)


That's a good and logical explanation, Jar-ptitsa! Yes, this must have have something to do with an ergative language. Let's wait until our linguistic expert returns from his break and I think that we are both eager to read his comment on this issue.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 17 January 2009 at 10:53am

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Iversen
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 Message 194 of 3959
19 January 2009 at 1:17pm | IP Logged 
I am not back yet (on the contrary), but happened to find a suitable computer in Copenhagen where I could check the forum.

About ergative (or ergative-absolutive) languages:

Let simplify the discussion by assuming that there are only two kinds of verbs, transitive and non-transitive (those with a direct object and those without). In the Indoeuropean languages the subject of all these have the same case, nominative. In a 100% ergative language the subject of an intransitive verb is in the same case as the OBJECT of a transitive, not the subject, while the subject is in another case, absolutive (or agentive? . I have seen that word somewhere). Basque is said to be ergative, and the same applies to Georgian, though only in the past tense. And there are a lot of other complication which every true language addict should be aware of, because they show a lot about the way languages can function. See more details here. Congratulations to Jar-Ptitsa, your explanation is just perfect.

DU: De komende paar weken mijn aanwezigheid op dit forum zal worden enigszins randame en waarschijnlijk beperkt, maar ik zal proberen te zoeken naar een internetcafe of twee tijdens mijn reis naar De Filippijnen. Ik het niet mijn bibliotheek gebracht - ik heb slechts een enkele tas als bagage mee - so ik word waarschijnlijk nog meer fouten dan normaal maken. Het geeft toch een paar micro-woordenboeken in the tas om dat ik woordenlisten* kan schrijfen. Groete boeken voor het vrije lezen, dat gaat niet met en bagage van 6-7 kilo. Ik heb ook vele andere dingen te doen tijdens mein reis, maar het tagalog (Pilipino) te leren is niet op de list.

Quëstie voor de Nederlands-taalkundige: wat is de verschil tussen "woordenlist" en "Woordenlijst"? En meine li(j)sten van drie koloms, Vremd - Moodertaal - vremd, zijn ze listen of lijsten?



Edited by Iversen on 19 January 2009 at 3:31pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 195 of 3959
20 January 2009 at 12:20am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
I am not back yet (on the contrary), but happened to find a suitable computer in Copenhagen where I could check the forum.

DU: De komende paar weken mijn aanwezigheid op dit forum zal worden enigszins randame en waarschijnlijk beperkt, maar ik zal proberen te zoeken naar een internetcafe of twee tijdens mijn reis naar De Filippijnen. Ik het niet mijn bibliotheek gebracht - ik heb slechts een enkele tas als bagage mee - so ik word waarschijnlijk nog meer fouten dan normaal maken. Het geeft toch een paar micro-woordenboeken in the tas om dat ik woordenlisten* kan schrijfen. Groete boeken voor het vrije lezen, dat gaat niet met en bagage van 6-7 kilo. Ik heb ook vele andere dingen te doen tijdens mein reis, maar het tagalog (Pilipino) te leren is niet op de list.

Quëstie voor de Nederlands-taalkundige: wat is de verschil tussen "woordenlist" en "Woordenlijst"? En meine li(j)sten van drie koloms, Vremd - Moodertaal - vremd, zijn ze listen of lijsten?


NL: Even wat taalopmerkingen:

"Randame" is geen Nederlands woord, je bedoelt "toevallig" in de betekenis van het Engelse woord "random". "A list" = "eine Liste" is in het Nederlands "een lijst", dus het woord "list" in die betekenis bestaat in het Nederlands niet. Dus zodoende is alleen "een woordenlijst" correct.

Ik wens je een prettige reis naar de Filipijnen met vele interessante indrukken. Hopelijk heb je veel contact met de mensen daar en kunt interessante bezienswaardigheden bekijken. Ik weet niet, wanneer je vertrekt, maar ik wens je alvast een goede reis! Ik schat maar dat je de kans zult krijgen, om daar veel Spaans en Engels te spreken.

Fasulye-Babylonia



Edited by Fasulye on 20 January 2009 at 4:01am

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shapd
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 Message 196 of 3959
21 January 2009 at 2:53pm | IP Logged 
Sorry, Jar-Ptitsa's explanation has been put forward by some linguists specifically for English but makes the specialists in the area see red. In languages like Basque and Georgian, it is nothing to do with the semantics of the verb. Iverson was absolutely right, except that the case of the subject of the transitive verb is in a special case, often called ergative, or in one of the oblique cases such as locative. The object of the transitive verb is the absolutive case, same as that of the intransitive subject.
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Fasulye
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 Message 197 of 3959
22 January 2009 at 7:55am | IP Logged 
GE: Durch deine Reise zu den Philipinen lasse ich mich auch inspririeren. Ich habe zum Teil wenig Ahnung von Ländern, die außerhalb Europas liegen. Zwar bekomme ich die politischen Entwicklungen aus den Nachrichten mit, aber weitergehende Kennntisse fehlen dann. Deswegen ist deine Reise für mich ein willkommener Anlass, mich auch zu bilden. Zunächst habe ich im Atlas gesehen, dass die Philipinen ein Multi-Inselstaat sind. Das ist ja völlig verwirrend, die einzelnen Inseln auseinanderzuhalten. Für die grundlegenden statistischen Fakten über alle Länder der Welt habe ich mir heute ein dickes Buch zugelegt:

"Der Fischer Weltalmanach 2009, Zahlen, Daten, Fakten auf mehr als 800 Seiten"

Dort steht zum Beispiel drin, dass "Filipino" und "Tagalog" unterschiedliche Sprachen sind.

Ich bin gespannt, was ich dazu noch von dir erfahren werde.

Fasulye-Babylonia
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Iversen
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 Message 198 of 3959
23 January 2009 at 7:30am | IP Logged 
shapd wrote:
Sorry, Jar-Ptitsa's explanation has been put forward by some linguists specifically for English but makes the specialists in the area see red. In languages like Basque and Georgian, it is nothing to do with the semantics of the verb. Iverson was absolutely right, except that the case of the subject of the transitive verb is in a special case, often called ergative, or in one of the oblique cases such as locative. The object of the transitive verb is the absolutive case, same as that of the intransitive subject.


Thank you for this information, - I can see that I have grasped the general idea, but confused the terms used for the different functions of the sentence. Some day I may have time to learn one of the languages in question, and then I will of course learn the proper names. But right now I'm concentrating on a bunch of languages that only sporadically shows traces of something that could be seen as ergative behaviour.

Speaking of Spanish: I wrote some notes about the situation here in my room an hour or so go, and I just quote them here to save computertime.

ESP: Estoy en este momento en Cebu en mi camara, donde escucho las noticias en español de TVE. Parece que hay el riesgo de un huracán en la costa de Viscaya y además hay 13 % de desempleados en España. Me gusta poder seguir las noticias de otros paises en la televisión. Pero si hablamos del español aquí en las Filipinas puedo decir que casi no existe, o existe solamente como otras lenguas estrangeras. Pero muchas personas tienen, sin embargo, nombres españoles, y por eso hay un clave especial para el 'ñ' en las teclados filipinos (pero yo estoy en esto momento con un teclado sin 'ñ'). Las Filipinas tienen una situacion muy interessanter: hay lenguas regionales como el cebuano aqui en Cebu, hay una lengua nacional, el tagalog o Pilipino, y hay la lengua internacional que es evidentemente el Inglés, y la gente aqui pueden cambiar de lengua a lengua durante una sola frasa. Yo tengo que hablar inglés..
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Fasulye
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 Message 199 of 3959
23 January 2009 at 9:55am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

ESP: Estoy en este momento en Cebu en mi camara, donde escucho las noticias en español de TVE. Parece que hay el riesgo de un huracán en la costa de Viscaya y además hay 13 % de desempleados en España. Me gusta poder seguir las noticias de otros paises en la televisión. Pero si hablamos del español aquí en las Filipinas puedo decir que casi no existe, o existe solamente como otras lenguas estrangeras. Pero muchas personas tienen, sin embargo, nombres españoles, y por eso hay un clave especial para el 'ñ' en las teclados filipinos (pero yo estoy en esto momento con un teclado sin 'ñ'). Las Filipinas tienen una situacion muy interessanter: hay lenguas regionales como el cebuano aqui en Cebu, hay una lengua nacional, el tagalog o Pilipino, y hay la lengua internacional que es evidentemente el Inglés, y la gente aqui pueden cambiar de lengua a lengua durante una sola frasa. Yo tengo que hablar inglés..


¡Hola al las Filipinas! Pues estas en Cebu aca. Veo la cuidad Cebu en mi atlas. Mi libro "Fischer Weltalmanach 2009" da los porcientos para los idiomas de este país:

En las Filpinas hablan las lenguas:

55 % Filipino
28 % Taglog
24 % Cebuano
10 % Ilocano
9 % Panay-Hilgaynon
6 % Bicol
3 % Español
3 % Chines
? % Ingles

Hasta el año 1898 las Filipinas estaban una colonia española. La independentia de la Filipinas commencó en el día 4 julio 1946.

La población del país:

40 % Malayos
30 % Indonesios y Polynesios
10 % Negritos/Aeta
10 % Chineses
5 % Hindios

Muy bien, que puedes mirar la televisión española TVE aca. Pero para practicar una lengua estranjera resta solamente el inglés.

Fasulye-Babylonia

PS: En Alemania hay también 11-13 % de desempleados como en Espana.
PS: the room = el cuarto, la habitación, la pieza ("camara" non existe).


Edited by Fasulye on 23 January 2009 at 10:03am

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 200 of 3959
23 January 2009 at 10:19am | IP Logged 
shapd wrote:
Sorry, Jar-Ptitsa's explanation has been put forward by some linguists specifically for English but makes the specialists in the area see red. In languages like Basque and Georgian, it is nothing to do with the semantics of the verb. Iverson was absolutely right, except that the case of the subject of the transitive verb is in a special case, often called ergative, or in one of the oblique cases such as locative. The object of the transitive verb is the absolutive case, same as that of the intransitive subject.


I don't udnerstand all this, because I thought that my explanation was grammatic, not semantic (?), or why the specialists in the area see red (they're angry?). I suppose that we can't analyse a thing which isn't in a lanagueg, and in English and French we haven't the ergative case. Can you put an example in those lanaguages of a phrase with this case and the most similar sentence which is not in it? Thank you very much.

Iversen, I hope thatyou will have a very nice time in The Philippines. If you make some photos, you can put them here!!


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