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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2017 of 3959
29 August 2010 at 6:35pm | IP Logged 
I went downtown to see a technology exhibition today (in four sections and part of "Århus Festuge"), but it was apparently closed - so that was a short visit, and I could return home to my studies. I went through some repetition of word lists in Bahasa (while watching TV, cfr. below), but then I came to speculate about possible themes for coming videos (and when I have a sizeable collection I'll probably upload them to the ugly big bad tube ... you have a standpoint until you take a new one, as a Danish politician once said).

One of the most interesting phases in my wordlist method is the one where you memorize words, precisely because the method as such doesn't contain any rules about which method you should use. I can see three main lines: 1) pure repetition which I find idiotic in its pure form, but it is a fundamental part of the longterm process of learning a language, 2) reinforcement techniques where you visualize the meaning, visualize its written form, hear it for your inner ear or speak it out loudly, 3) association techniques, which basically can be divided into a) 'internal' associations like similar words in the same or other languages (including roots), translations of the word, etymology or special morphological or syntactical rules which apply to it, b) external associations such as: where have you seen or heard it? or have you used it? But also 'silly' associations based on its outer form, - the more surrealistic the better.

To make order in all this will take some time, but I decided to begin with one special case, namely the system where you remember words through the derivational mesh they are part of. Bahasa gave me the idea as I mentioned in my 'secret' videos that long words should be split into their parts and learnt together with these- the typical case would involve a long word which is learnt together with its root and the affixes (if they aren't already known). However there is a language which is even better for an inquiry into this phenomenon, namely Russian.

Somebody once said that Russian is like a big machine where everything is interconnected. This is certain the case for its vocabulary, and to investigate this thought I took one simple root, "пис-". Words containing this root have meanings that almost always have something to do with writing (and you can see the connection even with the exceptions, except in maybe one case). I'm not going to write more about this here because it will take some time to make a copy of my finds on my PC and add a commentary, but let me just say that the list with just the Russian words and simple translations filled one entire sheet, and my comments filled most of the backside - and my handwriting is not exactly big.

With this one root and its derivations I think that I can illustrate most of the mechanisms that are involved in derivation - and Russian is a perfect language for this purpose because the main derivational patterns haven't been obscured to the same extent as in for instance English. I will make the result available here in some form.   

SP: He dicho que he visto la televisión hoy en día. Esto incluye TVE Internacional, que mostró una excelente trilogía sobre las aves españolas. Por desgracia, sólo vi la sección sobre las aves esteparias, pero incluso con esta restricción tuve que reconocer que mis conocimientos sobre la nomenclatura aviar presenta ciertas deficiencias.

SW: Sedan såg jag et utmärkt svenska program om rådjur, - och som så ofta i svensk TV var filmen musikfri, så åskåderne kunde koncentrera sig på vad som sades - hurra!. Det har alltid förvånat mig att filmskapare och människor från TV-miljön är så angelägna om att fylla sin film med talentlös och störande musik. Är orsaken till att det är én mer kollega som kan tjäna ett öre? Eller ble de bara född med hörlurar och walkman så tanken på att våra musikfri bara en sekund får dem att gå i panik? Jag vet inte, men musik i TV-program är vanligtvis en styggelse.

I have watched a splendid program about Spanish birds at TVE, - and for once it wasn't spoiled by bad music. I already knew that my knowledge of avian nomenclature in Spanish has a few lacunes, but now I was reminded about it. Apart from that it was easy enough to understand the program. Maybe I should find a field guide in Spanish next time I'm down there. Or as a start I could just read the bird guide I bought in Chile in the mid 90s. Maybe my next back-home-from-the-job book?

Afterway I watched a Swedish program from SV1 about roedeer, and as often in Swedish nature programs it was totally devoid of music - which obviously is the perfect solution. I have sometimes wondered whether producers and other people from the TV milieu were born with headphones and a walkman, since they apparently can't live without talentless and annoying music for just one moment.




Edited by Iversen on 31 August 2010 at 2:54pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2018 of 3959
30 August 2010 at 11:12pm | IP Logged 
POR: Eu quase não ouvia o Português em agosto, mas por isso tenho no último momento do mes pasado algumas horas na companhia de um número de estações de televisão brasileiras que eu encontrei no site wwitv.com. Neste momento estou a ouvir à estação CPCE - uma de 89! - onde se fala de diversos aspectos da educação cultural. Não é por acaso que eu escolhés canais brasileiros - os meus estudos Portuguêsos têm uma inclinação na direção da variante europeia da língua. e isto é um problema que tem que abordar.

RU: Кроме того, я закончил свой список слов, основанных на корень 'пис' - как глаголы и существительные и их производные. В самом деле, "список" слово очень интересно, потому что это слово, кажется, последний оставшийся в живых форм *писок чьи миниатюрные "писка" оказался более продуктивным. Я собираюсь комментировать форму позже. Эта форма может быть загружена здесь

I have been listening to internet TV from Brazil this evening. I haven't heard much Portuguese lately, but even less Brasilian. My link to internet TV is http://wwitv.com, where you find no less than 89 channels from Brazil alone.

On top of that I have finished my summary of the derivations of the root /pis/, including the verb "писать" which means 'to write'. The summary can be downloaded as a pdf-file from this address. I'll make more comments about this topic later.



Edited by Iversen on 31 August 2010 at 2:57pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2019 of 3959
01 September 2010 at 3:55pm | IP Logged 
'Later' has arrived, and I'll make a few comments to my table with derivations of the root 'пис' in Russian. I'll write in English because I want to point out some general features of derivation rather than teaching Russian to anybody - and also because I can be more precise when writing in English than in my mediocre Russian.

Before we start I would like to deplore the lack of a book that tells about roots and their derivations in the same way as in my table (including comments). It would in my eyes be a valuable supplement to other kinds of dictionaries, including specialist, thematic and etymological dictionaries. The only book that according to its title ("Roots of the Russian language") tries to fill the void is less than satisfactory .. but maybe there is something in Russian which I haven't heard about.

First observation: the part of the table that deals with verbal derivations is both more comprehensive and more regular than the part dealing with nouns and their derived adjectives/adverbs (and in both cases there is a lot of inflection - gender, person, number - which isn't shown here). Let's take the verbs first.

The primary derived verb is "писать" ('to write'), which is imperfective and active. 'Imperfective' is roughly the aspect used for 'timeless' states or repeated actions. Most, but not all simple verbs in Russian are imperfective - there is especially a cathegory of movement verbs which need special treatment. But that's not the point here.

The perfective 'partner' of "писать" is "написать". It is formed by adding a prefix, which looks like a wellknown preposition. The most common prefix in this role is "по", but "писать" has "на". And the meaning of the verb is changed in the way the perfective aspect dictates - it is generally used about actions on a timeline, but not more than that.

Both "писать" and "написать" are active, but become passive by the addition of "-ся" (which becomes "-c" after a vowel, and there is no other inflection). The meaning changes in the way you would expect for a passive.

I wrote that "писать" means 'to write', but actually it can also mean 'to paint (artworks)'. More about that later.

As you can see in the table "писать" can also take on a lot of other prefixes, which mostly look suspiously like prepositions (though with exceptions like "вы-" and "пере-"). Those verbs also become perfective, but with changes in their meaning that go beyond becoming perfective. So now you need imperfective partners for these verbs, and there are several ways of producing such verbs. With verbs of the form "+++писать" the solution is the introduction of an infix "-вы-", as for instance in "вписать" which becomes "вписывать" as an imperfective verb. Both verbs can of course be made passive by the addition of "-ся".

As a preposition "в" has a core meaning roughly translatable to "in" (with or without a direction), and "вписать" (literally "in-write") is translated as "enter, insert" in my Berlitz pocket dictionary. Actually "в-" also occurs with a number of other Russian verbs, and there the semantic change is similar, as for instance in "водить, вести" (lead, conduct, guide, drive, steer) which with "в-" become "вводить, ввести" (introduce, i.e. 'lead or drive something into something else'). This general regularity in meaning changes is like a backgrund which should be taken for granted, and then the task for the language learner is to find the exceptions.

And of course there are exceptions. One kind of exception is that not all prefixes work with all verbs. "Писать" has a very rich palette of possible combinations, but most verbs are more limited - and even with "писать" we see places where the system isn't used to its full extent. For instance the imperfective passive "пописываться" ('scribble') is found in one of my dictionaries, but without indications that there is a corresponding perfective verb. Actually there is one: the pair "пописывать, пописать" means 'to pee'. Well, is this really the same word.. maybe based on the idea of 'writing in the snow'? I dunno. There are other places where I suspect that some combination is rare, and with other verbs many combinations aren't mentioned at all in my dictionaries - even the presumed 'base verb' of a series can be missing. This doesn't come as a surprise - sometimes words do become obsolete, and it is rarily clear why.

Sometimes certain forms take on a life of their own. There are for instance a number of passive forms that have developed special meanings, most clearly in the case of "описывать, описать" ('describe, make an inventory') which in the passive somewhat unexpectedly get the meaning 'make (write) an error'. But even in this case there is a thin line back to the active meaning.

So the general impression of the verbal derivational system is that of an overwhelming regularity, but with some pitfalls and some limitations you have to learn.

If we look at the nominal derivations we see several derived roots in play: at least five for the 'doers' and four or five for 'thing done'. Both "писец" and "писарь" means 'scribe', "писатель" (and its feminine version "писательница") mean 'author' and "писака" means 'hack'. At least the first three also have adjectival derivations: "писецовый", "писарской", "писательский". With the demise of the scribe's profession only "писатель" is really common in modern Russian, and as expected it has a few derivations - and they are significantly based on some of the prefixes we found with the verbs: "описательний" and "записательний", both meaning 'descriptive' (with a surprisingly tenuous semantic line back to the substantive). Finally there is the word "подписчик" ('subscriber') with its feminine variant "подпиcчица".

All the endings here are known from other words.

The basic 'thing done' forms are "письмо" ('letter') and "писание" (the act or result of writing), but also some spurious forms *пись, *писка and *писок. According to my dictionaries the first one now only exists through derivated forms, though "пись" certainly exists in the realm of miction (from where it seems to have returned to descriptions of certain kinds of writing). The second one also seems to have disappeared in its pure form, although forms of the "писк" ('squeak', 'peep') cloud the picture. I suspect that *писка itself is a diminutive from "*писок" ('list' etc.), which certainly is alive and kicking, but only in one derivation "список", which has a number of meanings centred around 'list'.

All these words have derivations which are logical from a semantical point of view. However with the prefix "рас-" the secondary meaning of "писать" turns up again: the adjective "расписной" means painted. Note the spelling - there is a "ь" less than in the parallel forms above it in the pdf-file, and this already sets it apart from other derivations of *пись. Strangely enough the corresponding noun "распис" (also without "ь") means 'table' (as in table of content) - which might suggest that it was introduced as a shortened version of "расписание".

Even though the degree of order is less here the general principle for language learners must be first to look for the regularities, and then notice the exceptions. Of course looking for regular features becomes a waste of time at some point, but we are not there yet in this example.


Edited by Iversen on 02 September 2010 at 12:33pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2020 of 3959
03 September 2010 at 12:03pm | IP Logged 
SP: Desde ayer, mi libro de autobus-en-retorno-de-mi-trabajo está la "Guía para la Identificación de las Aves del Iguazú" - un libro más manejable que mi guía a las aves de Chile. Y con elementos de verdadera poesia como esto: "Las locas picadas de los vencejos a través de las cascadas, el vuelo suspendido de un iridiscente picaflor, el parlotear de los loros paladeando frutos de ambay, o el cruce de los extravagantes tucanes recortadis contra el cielo[...]" ... pero la mayor parte del libro está escrito en un estilo más lacónico. Sin embargo, estoy bastante seguro de que puedo aprender todas las expresiones necesarias para describir las aves de este libro - incluidas las aves europeas.

My book-back-home-from-work right now is a field guide in Spanish to the birds of Iguazu - it was thinner than the one I have about the birds of Chile. And in some sections it is quite poetic - but the bird descriptions are as bone dry as the same kind of descriptions in English field guides.

DA (hyperliteral): "Her koster 'rodgrod' point"
Here 'rodgrod' costs points.

Jeg læser udenlandske tekster på vej hjem fra arbejde,
I red outlandish texts on way home from work

men om morgenen på vej dertil læser jeg aviser.
but about morning on way thereto read I newspapers

Og i 'Urban' læste jeg i dag en notits om at man vil lære flygtninge og indvandrere
And in 'Urban' read I to day a notice about that man will teach fugitives and immigrants

bedre dansk via et computerspil, som oprindelig blev lavet til amerikanske soldater.
better Danish through a computergame, which originally was made to American soldiers.

Nu skal man bare ikke finde talibaner, men den stedlige bager eller bank i en landsby,
Now shall man (=you) just not find talibans, but the local bakery or bank in a village,

og man skal være høflig - ellers koster det point (eller man bliver slået ihjel).
and man (you) shall be courteous - else costs it points (or man (you) gets killed to-death)

Hentydningen til 'rodgrod' skyldes den uofficielle danske nationalsport:
ReferenceThe to 'redporridge' (= berry-poridge) due-to-is the unofficial Danish national sport:

at lokke udlændinge til at sige "rødgrød med fløde"
to lure foreigners to to say "redporridge with cream".

Hvis man kan sige dette med de rigtige bløde d'er og ø'er, så har man bestået!
If man (you) can say this with the correct soft d's and ø's then has man (you) passed!

Edited by Iversen on 03 September 2010 at 12:06pm

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 Message 2021 of 3959
03 September 2010 at 1:43pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
SP: Desde ayer, mi libro de autobus-en-retorno-de-mi-trabajo está la "Guía para la Identificación de las Aves del Iguazú" - un libro más manejable que mi guía a las aves de Chile. Y con elementos de verdadera poesia como esto: "Las locas picadas de los vencejos a través de las cascadas, el vuelo suspendido de un iridiscente picaflor, el parlotear de los loros paladeando frutos de ambay, o el cruce de los extravagantes tucanes recortadis contra el cielo[...]" ... pero la mayor parte del libro está escrito en un estilo más lacónico. Sin embargo, estoy bastante seguro de que puedo aprender todas las expresiones necesarias para describir las aves de este libro - incluidas las aves europeas.

My book-back-home-from-work right now is a field guide in Spanish to the birds of Iguazu - it was thinner than the one I have about the birds of Chile. And in some sections it is quite poetic - but the bird descriptions are as bone dry as the same kind of descriptions in English field guides.

DA (hyperliteral): "Her koster 'rodgrod' point"
Here 'rodgrod' costs points.

Jeg læser udenlandske tekster på vej hjem fra arbejde,
I red outlandish texts on way home from work

men om morgenen på vej dertil læser jeg aviser.
but about morning on way thereto read I newspapers

Og i 'Urban' læste jeg i dag en notits om at man vil lære flygtninge og indvandrere
And in 'Urban' read I to day a notice about that man will teach fugitives and immigrants

bedre dansk via et computerspil, som oprindelig blev lavet til amerikanske soldater.
better Danish through a computergame, which originally was made to American soldiers.

Nu skal man bare ikke finde talibaner, men den stedlige bager eller bank i en landsby,
Now shall man (=you) just not find talibans, but the local bakery or bank in a village,

og man skal være høflig - ellers koster det point (eller man bliver slået ihjel).
and man (you) shall be courteous - else costs it points (or man (you) gets killed to-death)

Hentydningen til 'rodgrod' skyldes den uofficielle danske nationalsport:
ReferenceThe to 'redporridge' (= berry-poridge) due-to-is the unofficial Danish national sport:

at lokke udlændinge til at sige "rødgrød med fløde"
to lure foreigners to to say "redporridge with cream".

Hvis man kan sige dette med de rigtige bløde d'er og ø'er, så har man bestået!
If man (you) can say this with the correct soft d's and ø's then has man (you) passed!


DK: Det er mange interessant om ad læse for mig! Jeg kender "rodgrød med fløde" godt, men jeg har ikke sagt det på min You Tube video. Jeg forstår 85 % fra dine sætninger uden onderteskerne på engelsk.

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 2022 of 3959
03 September 2010 at 1:54pm | IP Logged 
Jeg vil prøve at få fat på en opskrift på rødgrød med fløde til din kulinariske tråd -det er jo en vegetarisk ret!
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 Message 2023 of 3959
03 September 2010 at 2:11pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Jeg vil prøve at få fat på en opskrift på rødgrød med fløde til din kulinariske tråd -det er jo en vegetarisk ret!


DK: Ja, det er en god idé! Mine bedstreforaeldrene spisten tit rödgröd, fordi det kender menskerne i Schleswig-Holstein ogsâ.

Fasulye
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Iversen
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 Message 2024 of 3959
05 September 2010 at 9:18am | IP Logged 
NO: Jeg burde ha fått en stor dose norsk i dag - det er en maraton utsendelse på dansk TV, som begynner med avgang fra Bergen kl. 9 og slutter i Oslo kl. 15 - og ikke ett minutt på veien er kuttet ut. Det har imidlertid bltt inkludert intervjuer plus utallige desidert ekle sanger om bana, så vi ser ikke landskapet i fred. Du kan laste ned den opprinnelige versjonen uten forurensning her (på norsk her), og jeg ville ha gjort det hvis ikke det skjedde gjennom en torrent. For et øyeblikk siden gjorde vi stopp på Voss stasjon, men det norske TV-personalet ødela fullstendig stemningen med en stygg sang. Men bildene er fine - uten lyd.

Jeg har reist mye i Norge, men det er dyrt deroppe. På 70-tallet kjørte jeg på Interrail og spiste så lite som muligt, og siden kjørte jeg nordover på Nordturist-billett. Men Bergensbanen har jeg mest kjørt på natten - hvilket også kan bli en stor opplevelse i de lyse skandinaviske kvelder. PS: akkurat nå hører jeg norsk tala - kunsten er å vente til det er danske undertekster. Men hvor lenge?

Egentlig har jeg en bok om nynorsk liggende som godnatt-lesing, men det blir ikke til mye - i hjernen min har boken blitt registrert som litteratur, og så frister den ikke.

----

I could have heard a lot of Norwegian today. Danish DR2 will be sending a marathon program about Bergensbanen from 9 am to 3 pm today, made by NRK last year to celebrate the 100 years jubilee of the line. For those of you who don't know this railway: it is among the most beautiful railway routes in the world, and it is NOT primarily made for tourists, but instead for ordinary travel between the two largest towns of Norway. Along the way there is a sidelinje to Flåm, which in itself is seen as one of the star attractions of the country. Another side line once went to Granvin, and it was also very pretty, but not as famous so it has been dropped.

The only problem is that the morons who made the program can't let us enjoy the countryside in peace OR with explanations in Norwegian OR with the original sound from the train, - oh nooo, they absolutely had to play ugly songs all the time. Luckily it is possible to download the whole thing without pollution via the links in the section above, but unfortunately this is through a torrent, and although the content is legal in this case I'm deeply suspicious about the method. There are short moments of blissful silence, and I'll drop in every time I see subtitles in Danish because then they are supposedly speaking Norwegian. But in between evil reigns amidst natural beauty without compare.

Yesterday I made one more video, minus a few scans which I'll do at home today. But I'll be sitting on the hoard until I have covered the whole realm of language learning . I also began writing the monthly summary, which will be ready later today.

EDIT (NO):og "senere" er nå, 14.06 CET. Jeg ankom faktisk til 30 august før Bergensbanen kom til Olso Sentralstation - triumf! Den siste delen har vært mindre irriterende enn den første delen, - ikkje uten sanger, men med færre av dem og lange strekninger av velsiknet stillhet eller norsk ind imellom. Toget står stille på noen stasjon langs en fjord eller elv, men jeg så ikke navnet hennes så jeg vet ikke hvor vi er. .. Nå kjør vi igen..

.. and 'later' is now. I reached August 30 before the train reached Oslo, - triumph!

Edited by Iversen on 05 September 2010 at 2:16pm



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