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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2993 of 3959
10 August 2012 at 4:32pm | IP Logged 
IT: Raiuno è piena di spazzatura, ma ci sono alcune serie di trasmissioni di valore. Ed ieri, il Giovedí, ci fosse Super Quark per la seconda settimana consecutiva - pare che sia sempre il giovedì (devo ricordarmi di questo la prossima settimana!). Ieri ci fu - come di consueto - diversi temi, tra cui gli abitudini alimentari delle donne incinte (carnivori diventano erbivori e viceversa) e inoltre materiali ceramici piezoelettrici, i quali si studia per esempio in Faenza, città della ceramica. Ma il tema più significativo è stata quella della la città di Mosca, dove abbiamo visitato tra l'altro una cattedrale che è stata ricostruita sul luogo in cui Stalin aveva demolitra una cattedrale per fare spazio a uno dei suoi grattacieli mostruosi. Ma ciò non è mai successo, e poi Krusciov a fatto costruire una piscina enorme all'aperto per la gioia dei moscoviti. Questi hanno dunque ricevuto ricevuto un'altra chiesa, ma perduto la sua piscina.

Raiuno is usually a detestable dump for third rate television, but there are a few excellent series, and yesterday (Thursday) I watched Super Quark once aagain. And just one week after the previous programme in the series - so I'll definitely check out the channel next Thursday evening. As usual there were several themes, such as ceramical materials with piezoelectric characteristics and the eating habits of pregnant women, but the main theme was Moscow. And one of the stories was the one about a cathedral near the river which was pulled down by Stalian to make room for one more of his monster skyscrabers (of which seven still grace the skyline of the town - they are affectionately called "The seven sisters"). But then the war came and Khrushchev used the empty space for an enormous outdoors heated swimmingpool, which as far as I know was very popular among the Muscovites. However now the old cathedral has been reerected in the same spot, and gone are the days where the local population could bask around with their heads in icy cold and their bottoms in nice tepid water - which steamed so much that you could see it from far away (I have seen the steam with my own eyes).

Небоскребы сталинской теперь стали туристическими достопримечательностями. Крупнейший в настоящее время является главным зданием Ломоносова университета, некоторые из них были устроены отелях   (в том числе гостиницы Украина, которую я видел по дороге в зоопарк) и является самым высоким является Триу́мф-Пала́с (264 метров). Их также называют "семь сестер".

Edited by Iversen on 10 August 2012 at 4:58pm

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 Message 2994 of 3959
12 August 2012 at 12:29am | IP Logged 
Iversen, I had a dream about your Guide to Learning Languages and I thought I should tell you. I went to a library and it was there, written all over the walls, and glowing, like it was enshrined in light! I thought that was a nice tribute, but it made it very difficult to read and use.

The only explanation I can think of for this is that I'd been reading Borges before I went to bed, and his work is full of strange and fantastic libraries.
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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

9078 posts - 16472 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2995 of 3959
13 August 2012 at 3:33pm | IP Logged 
I have not dreamt anything similar about it, but my own first association would be the Egyptian tombs with the Book of the Dead written on the walls - without the hieroglyphs, but with letters instead. That text is also some kind of survival guide.

GER: Ich habe wiedermals meine Mutter und ihren Astra 19.2°-Empfänger besucht. For einige Zeit nachdem sie 'den Kasten' bekommen hatte, funktionierte alles perfekt, und man konnte buchstablich Hunderte von Kanälen sehen. Aber plötzlich änderte sich alles, und nun kann man überhaupt keine HD-Kanäle sehen, und es gibt Bildstörungen auf viele von den anderen Kanälen. Und wir wissen noch nicht was geändert sei - ich haben alle Kabeln überprüft. Und dies ist bestimmt nicht gut für unsere Deutsch-Fähigkeiten! Zudem ist es jetzt schwerer geworden gezielt nach Zoo-Programme zu suchen, und dies war leider einer von den wenigen Genren, die meine Schwester und meine Mutter og ich alle mochten - daraus ergiebt sich ein ständiges diplomatisches Problem.

Trotzdem ist es mir gelungen ein Bissel Fern zu gucken, derunter eine sehr interessante Sendung von Anixe über ein Zwergmensch auf Palau, dessen Vorväter vor 3000 Jahren oder so dort irgendwie angekommen sind (was nicht einfach ist - Palau ist eine Koralleninsel im Westlichen Pazifik). Und binnen wenige Jahren sind sie dann zu etwa 1,2 m Höhe geschrumpft. Immerhin handelt es sich aber da noch um einem Kleinform vom Homo sapiens - und nicht um einem neuen Vetter Hobbit wie der Homo florensiensis. Darüber hinaus habe ich auch Niederländische, Französische, Italienische und Chinesische Programme geguckt - auf CCTV mit Untertitel.

DA: På vejen hjem læste jeg bladet Illustreret Videnskab på dansk - men der var faktisk mindst én artikel med relevans for dette forum - to hvis man medregner en artikel, der siger at vi er fødte optimister: vi tror i gennemsnit at tingene vil gå fint og at vi er i den bedste halvdel af menneskeheden. Hvis vi så får at vide at det er forkert, retter vi lynhurtigt 'opad' hvis vi får en positiv melding, men vi er ikke særligt tilbøjelig til at justere nedad hvis vi får et Chiops-budskab (Hiobsbotschaft) . Den anden artikel med relevans for sprogindlæring hævder, at man kan teste børn for tre ting i en alder af et halvt år, hvor de endnu ikke kan tale, og derved kan man ret præcist forudsige, hvor gode de bliver til at tale senere. De tre ting er størrelsen på den venstre amygdala (et hjernecenter) , styrken af deres gammabølger samt evnen til at registrere hurtige skift i tonehøjde. Det vides allerede nu at størrelsen af amygdala kun er relevant for babyer, men de to andre kunne være relevante også senere i livet.

My mother's Astra receiver functioned admirably for the first months after she got it, but then suddenly something changed, and now she can't see any HD channels, and there are disturbances on many of the other channels. It has been like that for months, and we don't have clue as to what might have cause the sudden change (I have checked the cable connections, and the parabola seems to be at the same spot as it always has been). Luckily she also had cable TV, but half of the channels there haven't shown anything relevant lately - just OL, OL and more goddam OL, and we are all sick and tired of it. In spite of these problems - which affect our combined language skills negatively - I have managed to watch TV in German, Dutch, French, Italian and Chinese (the latter fortunately with subtitles). The most interesting program according to me (but not my sister) was a program from the German station Anixe about a newly found kind of pygmy people (1,2 m or less) from the Island Palau in the Pacific. It seems that the ancestor of these people came around 3.000 years ago, but then they rapidly shrank … and after some time they mysteriously died out. But they were at least Homines Sapientes - not cousins of the more famous Hobbit from Flores, who is/was some kind of miniature version of Homo Erectus.

On my way home I read the Danish magazine "Illustreret Videnskab", where I found a couple of relevant articles. One stated that people generally think that things will work out for them and that they are somewhat better than average. If they then receive evidence to the contrary in a positive direction they are quick to adjust their expectations upwards, whereas negative messages generally are ignored. Succes with language studies … are we too pollyanna optimistic by nature? Even more relevant: an article states that you can check infants at around 6 months of age and predict how good they later will be at speaking. A big amygdala in the left side, strong gamma wawes and the ability to react quickly on frequency changes makes for a good speaker. Of these criteria the first only applies to toddlers, but the other two might be relevant later in life. Besides bilingual people get Alzheimer later than monolinguals, but I suppose we all know that here at HTLAL … and because it is a positive message we have probably on the average already adjusted our life expectancies upwards, whereas the monoglots couldn't care less about such nasty messages.

Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2012 at 12:08pm

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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

9078 posts - 16472 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2996 of 3959
15 August 2012 at 2:29am | IP Logged 
I have spent a busy and generally peaceful evening with several projects, which weren't all of linguistic character. I started out listening to filmmusic by Waxman, one of the big romantic film composers from Hollywood. I could not see myself watching any of those films, but I like listening to their musical scores. Most of my old tapes features something called National Philharmonic Orchestra under Charles Gerhardt, and lo and behold now some of these pop up on Youtube - for instance the suite from Prince Valiant (originally a crusader from a cartoon, but put on the big screen in 1954) and the suite from Taras Bulba (who also has also inspired a Janacek work) in a recording with the composer conducting - the exhilarating Ride to Dubno starts around 17 minutes into the suite. And you can even get it in a version for two pianos.

RU: Тарас Бульба был казацкий атаман, который защищал свою православную религию и казаки собственной страны против поляков-католиков, но на Youtube также есть русский фильм, где пожилой мужчина стоял посреди пылающего огня, провозглашяя свою верность русскому царю. Но этот вывод, плохо пахнет исторической фальсификацием. Казаки не было никаких оснований любить царя.

But there are other things on Youtube and on TV than music. I have spent most of the evening making maps and other things for my photo collection, which is organized as a very intra net - i.e. no internet access, but written in html with clickable maps and other goodies. But while doing those things there is no excuse for not listening to some babble in other languages.

IT: Fortunamente Raiuno mi ha regalato ancora un Passaggio al Oveste, e giovedí ci avrá un Superquark. Com'è possible? Raiuno diventa culturale??

At some point I accidentally stumbed over a video with something as rare as a native Manx speaker, although from the 'resurrection generation' - the last true native speaker is supposed to be Ned Mandrell, who died in 1974 at the ripe old age of 97 years. The video was posted by professor Seán O'Briain, who actually was one of the organizers of the Esperanto conference in Galway in July - estas malgranda mondo! (It's a small world)

From Manx I continued to Irish, where I among other things found a short video in Irish with Dara O'Briain, one of the comedians from QI - so now I know that he can speak the language. Even Barack Obama has learnt a few sentences in Irish. Mise ní féidir liom - fós! I found four episodes (mostly) in Irish with English subtitles about the four seasons of the year as seen from the Aran Islands - Bliain in Inis Oírr Episode 1 to 4 (In Danish that would be "Årets gang på Oirr-øen"). So far I can pick out some words and identify the word boundaries, but my vocabulary is still too restricted to allow me to understand those programs without looking at the subtitles. OK, that'll come - hopefully before the language dies out..

By the way, I have the Travel channel (without sound) running on my TV, and I just saw that the program there is about a man who drives around on the roads of Man on his trusty old motorbike. It's indeed a small world.

Edited by Iversen on 15 August 2012 at 3:59pm

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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

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Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2997 of 3959
17 August 2012 at 5:19am | IP Logged 
SP: Se está haciendo tarde, así que me limitaré a mencionar que seguí como previsto Super Quark en Italiano desde 21.20 CET hasta después del 23, pero de vez en cuando (por ejemplo durante las pausas publicitarias) he cambiado a Españoles en el Mundo de TVE en español.

Después de la medianoche he estudiado la gramática irlandesa, y aquí me di cuenta de nuevo de la simetría peculiar de la combinación de artículo y el sustantivo. Como ustedes ciertamente saben, los substantivos irlandeses cambian en ambos extremos. Sin embargo, las cinco declinaciones se refieren en realidad solamente a las terminaciones. Los comienzos se rigen por normas que dependen del género y de factores fonéticos. Lo interesante es que el nominativo/acusativo singular del feminino se comporta exactamente como el genitivo singular masculino: 'lenición' de las consonantes (menos t, d, s), 't' inicial antes de vocales y s, sl, sn, sr ("srón" nariz, pero "an tsrón" la nariz). Además: esto podría ser pura coincidencia, pero el genitivo singular feminino sigue mismas reglas como el nominativo/acusativo plural: articolo "na" y 'h' antes de vocales.

IR: Tá mé aon muinín sa téacsleabhar mo sean-éadrom gorm ón Teach Yourself. Úsáideann an leabhar seo ina gcáithníní "do" roimh an aimsir chaite gach foirm briathar, ach deir mo leabhair ghramadaí a úsáid ach amháin na gcáithníní "d'" roimh gutaí. Thairis sin, úsáideann an leabhar seo níos mó simplí foirmeacha briathartha ná úsáideann siad na gramadaí. Mar shampla:

TY (dúnaim 'I close' - present tense)

1s: dúnaim
2s: dúnair/dúnann tú
3s: dúnann sé, si

1p: dúnaimíd
2p: dúnann sibh
3p: dúnaid

Congáil: (molaim - 'I praise')

1s: molaim
2s: molann tú
3s: molann sé, si

1p: molaimíd
2p: molann sibh
3p: molann siad


TY (do dhúnas 'I closed' - past tense)

1s: do dhúnas
2s: do dhúnais
3s: do dhún sé, si

1p: do dhúnamair
2p: do dhúnamair / do dhún sibh
3p: do dhúnadar

Congáil: (mholainn - 'I praised' - past tense)

1s: mhol mé
2s: mhol tú
3s: mhol sé, si

1p: mholamar
2p: mhol sibh
3p: mhol siad


TY: (do chrúinn 'I milked' - imperfect)

1s: do chrúinn
2s: do chrúitheá
3s: do chrúdh sé (, si)

1p: do chrúimís
2p: do chrúidg sibh
3p: do chrúidís

Congáil: (mholainn - 'I praised' - past habitual tense*)

1s: mholainn
2s: mholtá
3s: mholadh sé, si

1p: mholaimis
2p: mholadh sibh
3p: mholaidis

The St Patrick-green forms are 'synthetic', while the black ones are 'analytic'. And the tendency in Irish seems to be that the easier analytic forms take over the territory of the traditional synthetic ones. However the examples above show that my old light blue Teach Yourself Irish and my Irish Grammar Book by N.Mac Congáil don't quite agree on the distribution of these two kinds of verbal forms - especially not in the past tense where TY on top of all their quaint old or dialectal (Munster) synthetic forms use the particle 'do' consistently. All my other sources claim that only "d'" in front of vowels is in use today - "do" elsewhere is history. Teach Yourself's own Irish grammar actually seems to be closer to Mac Congáil than to their old textbook, but I hardly use it because I can't accept that even most important tables are relegated to appendices just to make room for silly games and exercises. Mac Congáil's book from Galway is more sober, but I can't really understand why the examples aren't all translated into English. In the parallel Irish version (which I bought in Ennis) it makes sense to avoid English translations (although I can see with my little eye that there ARE English translation here and there in that edition), but you would expect that those who buy the English version haven't quite mastered the Irish language yet.

PS: found an interesting excerpt from a book about Irish here

Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2012 at 1:10pm

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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

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 Message 2998 of 3959
18 August 2012 at 1:27am | IP Logged 
DU: Ik ben deze avond druk bezig geweest met de juiste lay-out van mijn foto collectie systeem (in html), maar daarnaast heb ik geluisterd naar Nederlands internet-TV, slechts onderbroken door een half uur voor mijn favorietquiz QI in het Engels. Toen ik voor het eerst ontdekte dat ik kon het Nederlands begrijpen (dit is zeer ploetseling gebeurt) heb ik zowat wie vijf huur in een ruk geluisterd op AVRO Museum TV.

Later kwam er een periode waarin de AVRO station niet zijn winkel heeft bijgewerkt, maar ik vond een achterdeur naar een grote collectie van documentaires. Maar de dingen duren niet eeuwig op het internet, en op een gegeven moment opende ik AVRO's website om en een programma te zien, en toen kreeg ik te horen dat het niet zou kunnen gebeuren in mijn land! §#"Æ!! Dezelfde boodschap heb ik gekreeg wanneer ik proberte bepaalde zenders te bekijken door het portaal, maar er was gelukkig nog gratis toegang tot een aantal Nederlandse lokalsenders zijn lopende programma's.

Deze avond heb ik viftig plus minuten lang het Bloemencorso Zundert 2011 gezien op, gevolgt van de corso van Rijburgen - maar het laastgenoemne werd door lelijke popmuziek ontsierd. Ik heb daarnaa een beetje Lingo (een soort van letterquiz), maar ik heb toch gedacht dat ik weer zou kijken naar de toestand van AVRO (meestal om sentimentele redenen), en het bleek dat er inderdaad daar programma's was over kunst en musea - en zichtbaar in mijn land, dank je wel!. Eerst heb ik bijna een uur een programma op het grote renovatie van het Scheepvaart Museum gezien, die in 2009 begon. Volgende keer dat ik Amsterdam bezoeke, zal het een compleet nieuwe museum zijn. Ik heb ook gezien een lang programma over architectuur.

Het Nederlands is geschikt als 'achtergrond taal', omdat ik ze grotendeels kan begrijpen, maar het is anderzijds niet een van de talen die door mijn kabel-provider wordt aangeboden.

I have spent most of the evening changing the layout of the system I have used for my digital photo collection. It is programmed in html in notepad, but for a narrow screen, and now I have bought a cheap wide screen so I have decided to change the layout so it uses the full width of the screen. It takes a lot of time, and during this time I can of course not do intensive language studies. But luckily there are languages like Dutch which I hear far too rarely because my cable provider doesn't provide them. On the other hand Dutch is a good 'background language' because I can understand it almost 100% without looking things up.

WHen I first discovered that I could understand Dutch it happened literally from day to day (because I had prepared myself well through the written language, but listened far too little). And I remember that I listened something like 5 hours without stop to AVRO Museum TV - then the program began to repeat itself. However there was a long period later where neither the running program nor the podcasts were updated on AVRO's home page, and later I even experienced the dreaded 'this program can't be seen in your country'. I survived on a backdoor to a large collection of documentaries, but eventhis doesn't function any more. The are some of the Dutch TV stations at which aren't allowed in my country (hrmpf!), but I have sometimes watched programmes on some of the local stations down there - the problem is of course to find something interesting when you don't have their program listings.

Tonight I found a dozen video reports from Dutch flower parades at, but later I discovered that AVRO has a dragon's lair full of documentaries about architecture, art and museums. So I have seen almost an hour's excellent TV about the renovation of the Maritime museum - it will be a totally new experience next time i see it (and then I just hope that it still is as informative and interesting as it was during my earlier visits).   

Edited by Iversen on 18 August 2012 at 1:51am

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Super Polyglot
Joined 5380 days ago

9078 posts - 16472 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
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 Message 2999 of 3959
20 August 2012 at 1:57am | IP Logged 
I have spent the weekend in Copenhagen because of a meeting in my travel club, but of course I also made it into a tourism thing, visiting 4 museums and one zoo. Language learning was definitely not in the forefront of these visits, but somehow the theme did pop up now and than. I visited for instance the Amager Museum, named after the island Amager (where also Kastrup airport is located - it can actually be seen from the museum).

DU: Koning Christiaan II, die Denemarken 1513-1523 regeerde, had een Nederlandse concubine Dyveke, en haar moeder Sigbrit hadde grote invloed op de koning. Daarnaast werd hij getrouwd met Isabella van Habsburg , die was van Spaanse afkomst, maar opgegroeid in Brabant. Dus hij was goed op de hoogte over de competenties van de Nederlanders in verschillende gebieden, en hij besloot een groep van Nederlandse boeren uit te nodigen voor Denemarken, waar hij gaf hen de hele eiland Amager met uitzondering van de havenstad Dragør - de boeren die al woonden waren verhuisd. Maar de koning werd afgezet in 1523, en het gebied van de Nederlandse boeren werd verminderd - maar ze mochten blijven, en ze bleven hun interne zelfbestuur tot til 19. eeuwIn 1555, na de reformatie, het de koning Christian III en nieuwe protestantse priester benoemd, maar dit was geen Nederlandse priester - hij kwam uit Sleeswijk-Holstein, dat onder Denemarken toen was. En het resultaat is zo interessant dat ik zou willen u geven de oorspronkelijke tekst van het Amager museum (op Deens):

(...) eftersom man stadig var katolikker i Holland, hentede man i stedet præster fra Slesvig-Holsten. Her talte man plattysk, som ikke lå så langt fra hollandsk. De tysksprogede præster fik indflydelse på sproget, der blev en blanding af dansk, plattysk og hollandsk. Store Magleby kirke fungerede også som kirke for folk i Dragør, og her talte man jo dansk. I begyndelsen af 1700-tallet krævede folk i Dragør at få gudstjenesten på dansk. Efter længere tids strid bestemte Kongen, at gudstjenesten skiftevis skulle holdes på dansk og på plattysk. Derfor fik man både en dansk og en plattysk præst. Først i 1811 gik man over til udelukkende at prædike og synge på dansk i Store Magleby Kirke.

DU: Om dat de Nederlandse nog steeds katholieken was, werd in plaats ervan priesters herhaalt uit Sleeswijk-Holstein. Hier sprak men Nederduits, en dat was niet ver van de Nederlandse. De duitstalige priesters kreeg (groete) invloed op de taal, die een mengsel werd van de Deens, Laagduits en Nederlands. Store Magleby kerk diende ook als kerk voor de mensen in Dragør, waar men Deens sprak.. Aan het begin van de jaren 1700 hebben de bewoners van Dragør geëist om aanbidding te hebben in het Deens. Na langdurig conflict het de koning bevaalt, afwisselend aanbidden te houden in het Deens en op Platt. Daarom het men zowel een Deense als een Nederduitse priester. Pas op 1811 werd dit veranderd om uitsluitend te prediken en zingen in het Deens te hebben in Store Magleby Kerk.

De Lage Duitse invloed werd genoemd sterk, en over een deur en het museum hing deze blijkbaare Nederduitse zegswijse:

PLATT: Godt beware din indgang und Uthgang van nün aŭ ünd todt Ewighett"
(GER: Gott beware dein Eingang und Ausgang von jetzt ab und zu Ewigkeit

PLATT: Ek höff noog Platt sehn om te seggen dat dit nich puures Platt is, aver sachts een goote Proov vun de Mischspraak vun de Groot-Magleburgers. En die Ortographie wöör seker nich fastleegt - dit was lang voor Sass een sien Wöörböker. Aver Platt wöör ümbi die moedertaal vun die däänsche keunige - sien Dynastie keem uut Oldenburg - un ik höff funn een original Breev vun Christiern IV (1694) aan sien Fro Modder funnen, en dat is in Hoogdüütsch schreven.

Was ich der Sohnlicher verwandtnus nach viel mehr
Ehren. liebs vnd gudts vermach zuuor. Frewnliche, heriz-
vielgeliebte fraw mutter, wen es E: L: an leibes gesundt-
heidt vnd an allenn anderen dingen wol erginge, were mir
nichtes liebe[r]s zu spieren ^). Freunliche, hertzvielgeliebte
fraw mu.ter, ich håbe aus E: L: schreiben verstanden,
das es E: L: sol berichtet sein, das die holendische ge-
santen solten von wegen graff' Maurisium zu Nassau an-
gehalten haben um eine von meinen schwestern^), So kan
ich E: L: sohnlich nich verhalten, das die gesanten '^) die
sachen halben nicht ein wor[t] inst geringsten gedacht.

Un sodennig het Christian op Däänsch aan sien lieve Rieksroot schreven:

Vor Synderlig gunst Thilforn. Elskelige Danmarkis Rigis
Raad. wy foraarsagis aff nogen omstendige wilkor, som
nogle aar forleden Oc endnu dagligen seg tildrager,
at lade forsamble menige vore och Rigens Raad vdi vor
købsted Otthense -), deris betenkende vdi en sag, som oss
och Riiget macht paa ligger, at forfare, Och erre derfor
Nadi: begerendis, at Riigens Raad her udi deris endelig
mening, Raad och erklering oss uilde lade uiide.

Hier een Plattdüütsche Gespreek met 'n Polyglot vun Luenburg op Youtube (vun NDR sien 'Talk op Platt'): he spreek Engelsch, Düütsch, Plattdüütsch, Nedderlandsch, Franzöösch, Italiensch, wat Latein (als Pastor), alt-Greeksch en "hartlich wenig Hebreesch" - aver he spreek jem nich in dit Video.

Short summary: around 1520-21 king Christian II asked a group of Dutch farmers to come to Denmark, where he gave them the island Amager (apart from the harbour town Dragør). When he was deposed and jailed some wanted to chase the foreigners home again, but the end result was that they kept the southern part of Amager except Dragør - and the Amager Museum in the hamlet Big Magletown lies smack in the middle of this area (the airport wasn't there yet). They kept their internal selfrule until the early 19. century. In the museum I saw an interesting tale about the priests there: after the reformation the king called a new protestant vicar from Schleswig-Holstein, which was part of his kingdom, but as the text says - this man spoke Low German, which wasn't far from Dutch. This was an important factor in the development of a strange mixed language in the community with elements from Dutch, Low German and Danish. However Dragør was still staunchly Danish speaking, so from the early 18. century there were two vicars at the shared church, and there were alternately services in Low German and Danish - until 1811, where the services became all-Danish.

All this talk about Low German made me think of the Danish royal court, where Low German was quite common - after all the royal dynasty came from Oldenburg in Germany. It is well known here that even king Christian IV mostly spoke Low German, so I decided to check his private letters - but as far as I can see he tried (with limited success) to write in High German ... or Danish or Latin, depending on the purpose. Not in Platt.

In the Amager Museum I saw a text over a door which allegedly should be in Low German, but to me it looks more like an example of the mixed language I descibed above - it is not pure Low German, nor pure anything else, and the orthography looks suspiciously homemade (which wasn't uncommon in the those days - long before the dictionaries of Johannes Sass, which are the closest thing you can come to a common orthography for Low German). The meaning in English is: "God save your entrance and exit from now and in all eternity". When I first saw it I thought in anatomical terms, but I probably should think in terms of lifespan.

Edited by Iversen on 20 August 2012 at 2:03pm

1 person has voted this message useful

Senior Member
United Kingdom
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2371 posts - 3675 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Danish, Welsh

 Message 3000 of 3959
20 August 2012 at 8:58pm | IP Logged 
Hi Iversen,

I don't like to interrupt your log, but this question was inspired by your references
to Danish and low German in an earlier time, and the relationship between Denmark and
Germany. I'm currently reading Fontane's "Unwiederbringlich" which is set in Schleswig-
Holstein and Copenhagen around 1860. One of the (Danish) characters shows the German
main protagonist (Holk) a poem he has translated out of "old Danish" (I'm not sure what
period). I'm also not clear what language these people are supposed to be conversing
in, although the German (or Schleswiger) has an honourary appointment at the Danish
court, so one imagines he speaks Danish as well as German. We also see him reading
Danish newspapers. Anyway, my question is:

Have you studied "Old Danish" at all (however one would define this)?

1 person has voted this message useful

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