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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 217 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 2:44am | IP Logged 
fasulye wrote:
.. solamente te quiero decir que en el francés no hay la "k" excepto en los nombres por ejemplo de lugares: en general este sonido se escribe "qu"


FR: Bof! Je vois que j'ai écrit "qusi", mais je cherche encore le 'k'. A ma défense je peux seulement dire que je suis assis dans un milieu assez turbulent avec beaucoup de jeunes gens qui courent autour de moi, et je n'ai pas mes dictionaires ici, donc mon contrôle d'erreurs est encore plus limitée que d'habitude. Mais 'k' en Français .. c'est grave!

Glossa.passion wrote:
.. Zum Glück antworten nicht mal 1 % deiner Leser auf deine Beiträge, dein Thread würde sonst explodieren ...

DE: So kann man es ja auch sehen. Es ist ja eigentlich wie en talkshow - dort gibt es zumeist auch jemand da um den Wirt zu herausfordern und wiedersagen. SV: Dessutom tack för de vackra ord - de ger mig en chans att skjuta ind ett par ord på svenska, men svensk är tyvärr ett av de språk som inte är representerade i min reslektyr, ock här i Manila finnast lika lite svensk som dansk. I själva värket är de filippinske bokhandler ganska bra (trots skvalmusikken), men romanske, östasiatiska språk och arabiskan dominerar hyllorna med ordböcker. Engelskan kan inte sägas att vara ett fremmedspråk har.

Felipe wrote:
Esp: Yo también disfruto de este hilo. Un día de éstos voy a empezar uno igual. Port: É legal saber que você aprendeu português tão rápido, mas acho que às vezes isso faz com que o misture com espanhol.


SP: Te daré un buen consejo: no retrase el inicio del hilo multilingual. Para mi escribir un tal hilo funciona como un instrumento sin igual para mantener mi nivel en los idiomas que ya sabe y también para darme otra razon para aprender aun mas lenguas. PORT: Como tenho escrito anteriormente, não estou muito preocupado com alguns empréstimos errados do espanhol no meu Português. Se eu não sei uma palavra portuguesa, é mais provável que o correspondente espanhol (ou catalão ou francês) pode ser usado do que não o pode. E o interesante agora é que o transporte de palavras também está na outra direção.


Edited by Iversen on 31 January 2009 at 3:30am

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Fasulye
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 Message 218 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 3:25am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Jar-ptisa wrote:
.. solamente te quiero decir que en el francés no hay la "k" excepto en los nombres por ejemplo de lugares: en general este sonido se escribe "qu"


FR: Bof! Je vois que j'ai écrit "qusi", mais je cherche encore le 'k'. A ma défence je peux seulement dire que je suis assis dans un milieu assez turbulent avec beaucoup de jeunes gens qui courent autour de moi, et je n'ai pas mes dictionaires ici, donc mon contrôle d'erreurs est encore plus limitée que d'habitude. Mais 'k' en Français .. c'est grave!


NON, Iversen, c'était Jar-ptisa qui a corrigé ma faute, mais c'est grave quand meme.J'ai écrit "skeletons", ça c'est vraiment "nonsense" parce que je voulais utiliser le mot "squelette", mais je ne le savais pas et je n'ai pas regardé dans mon dictionnaire. Tu n'as fait pas de faute!

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 31 January 2009 at 3:20pm

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Iversen
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 Message 219 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 3:29am | IP Logged 
Gut, dann werde ich nicht weiter suchen.. Ich habe aber "defence" korrigiert.

And now for something completely different (or maybe not), - back to the Philippines. I have mentioned that the Lonely Planet book has some 30 pages of grammar, and I have bought a dictionary with a similar amount of Tagalog grammar in the beginning. Btw. I have been searching for a true grammar, but apparently they don't sell well enough to get to the bookstores here. There are maybe ten different English-Tagalog of different sizes (and one Italian-Tagalog one) available here, but I have to use the internet to add to the 2x30 pages in the two books I already have got.

However even this meager harvest has shown me the problems inherent in grammatical descriptions. In Lonely P there is one section where it is expressly stated that Filipine verbs don't have tempus, but only aspect: finished, non finished and hypothetical (plus an infinite root form). In no. 1 and 2 you put "nag" in front, in no. 3 "mag". Besides you have reduplication in no.2 and 3. The word for 'to travel' has these forms:
finished: naglakbay
unfished: naglalakbay
hypothetical: maglalakbay

However in my dictionary (written by a lady whose name I can't see here) it is stated that there are SEVEN ways to conjugate verbs: one with the affiks UM, three with MA, MAG, MANG, one with PA, two with IN, HIN. So only the MA, MAG, MANG group is treated in the Lonely P short version. Unfortunately the dictionary lacks information about PA and the information about IN, HIN is sketchy. And she speaks about past, present and future plus an infinitive form. The way she formulate the rules is also different, though the outcome seems to be the same. For the UM-group it seems to be an infix, and reduplication has apparently a slightly different meaning. Here the past tense (!) is the same as the infinitive, for instance "umasa" (to hope), "tumakbó" (run), "kumain" (eat). The presents of these three verbs are resp. "umaasa", "tumatakbó" and "kumakain"
.. i.e. the rule for reduplication seems to be: remove (temporarily) the um and then take the consonant before and the vowel after it, that gives the element that should be inserted. The futures are - prepare for a shock - "asa", "tatakbo" and (missing, but according to the rules maybe "kakain"). After this it would be nice to see something about PA, IN, HIN, but the only information is that the past of "ibigay" (give) is "ibinigay", and the present is "ibinibagay". Gosh... my world is shattered. Here the infix isn't already in the infinitive.

I now have consulted Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar) where there is a complicated table of affixes, that also takes into account semanticasl groups. I have a hard time to convince myself NOT to start to bring a bit of order to all these more or less conflicting and partial informations, but some scholarly tome somewhere may contain the best of all versions, and I can't access that from here. So I have to leave the mess as it is: a mess. The funy thing is that even with a minimal vocabulary and some simple grammar rules I already now can get some sense out of at least some simple texts in tagalog/filipino - I tried that out on the bilingual texts in the Metropolitan museum today. Pilipino is certainly something that could be learned if I just had time (and reason) to do it.


Edited by Iversen on 31 January 2009 at 4:11am

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Fasulye
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 Message 220 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 3:34am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Gut, dann werde ich nicht weiter suchen..


Ja, ich darf auch mal Fehler machen, denn auch für dieses Forum gilt: Nobody is perfect!

Ich finde es immer gut, wenn es jemandem auffällt, denn sonst prägt man sich noch solche dummen Sachen ein.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 31 January 2009 at 3:35am

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Fasulye
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 Message 221 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 5:41am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:

I now have consulted Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_grammar) where there is a complicated table of affixes, that also takes into account semanticasl groups. I have a hard time to convince myself NOT to start to bring a bit of order to all these more or less conflicting and partial informations, but some scholarly tome somewhere may contain the best of all versions, and I can't access that from here. So I have to leave the mess as it is: a mess. The funy thing is that even with a minimal vocabulary and some simple grammar rules I already now can get some sense out of at least some simple texts in tagalog/filipino - I tried that out on the bilingual texts in the Metropolitan museum today. Pilipino is certainly something that could be learned if I just had time (and reason) to do it.


GE: Das wäre mir zu trocken, von einer Sprache, die ich noch gar nicht gelernt habe, Grammatiken zu analysieren. Ich muss erst die lebendige Sprache lernen durch Dialoge und praktische Anwendungsbeispiele, dann will ich auch mal etwas in einer Grammatik nachschlagen. Du machst das wie ein Linguist an der Uni, der sich Grammatiken von verschiedenen Sprachen zur Hand nimmt und dann mit linguistischen Kenntnissen im Hintergrund das Ganze analysiert. Ich muss eine Sprache als etwas Lebendiges in mich aufnehmen, dabei will ich dann auch die Logik der Grammatik gut durchgründen. Mir ist das Verständnis der Grammatik sehr wichtig (sonst wäre ich auch bei einer solchen Sprache wie Türkisch völlig verloren!), aber ich muss mich dem Ganzen ganz anders nähern, sonst habe ich da keinen Spaß dran. Das ist wieder ein gutes Beispiel, wie man ganz unterschiedlich an eine Sprache herangehen kann. Bei mir ist es mehr der integrative praxisbezogene Ansatz, ich muss die Sprache als Gesamtheit "assimilieren" und dabei dann die grammatischen Strukturen durchgründen. Du gehst eher analytisch-theoretisch vor.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 31 January 2009 at 6:08am

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 222 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 1:52pm | IP Logged 
Yes, exactly, I wrote about the "k" because fasulye had spelled "skeleton"

you find astronomy very interesting, therefore maybe you'd like to visit this place, which isn't far from where I come. It's possible read on the website in French, Dutch or English

http://www.eurospacecenter.be/index.html
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Fasulye
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 Message 223 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 3:05pm | IP Logged 
Jar-ptitsa wrote:
Yes, exactly, I wrote about the "k" because fasulye had spelled "skeleton"

you find astronomy very interesting, therefore maybe you'd like to visit this place, which isn't far from where I come. It's possible read on the website in French, Dutch or English

http://www.eurospacecenter.be/index.html


NL: Het zou leuk zijn om met mijn vriend samen een dagexcursie naar het spacecenter te maken, want hij interesseert zich ook voor astronomie en ruimtevaart. We zijn al 8 keer samen naar het planetarium in Bochum geweest. Maar binnen België zou ik de volledige treinpreizen moeten betalen, ik zou zo'n reis financieel niet kunnen opbrengen. Dat is wel heel jammer, dat ik zo "reisbeperkt" ben. Binnen NRW gaat dat beter, want ik heb hier een regionale ticket van het openbaar vervoer.

Fasulye-Babylonia

Edited by Fasulye on 31 January 2009 at 3:07pm

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Jar-ptitsa
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 Message 224 of 3959
31 January 2009 at 6:16pm | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:

NL: Het zou leuk zijn om met mijn vriend samen een dagexcursie naar het spacecenter te maken, want hij interesseert zich ook voor astronomie en ruimtevaart. We zijn al 8 keer samen naar het planetarium in Bochum geweest. Maar binnen België zou ik de volledige treinpreizen moeten betalen, ik zou zo'n reis financieel niet kunnen opbrengen. Dat is wel heel jammer, dat ik zo "reisbeperkt" ben. Binnen NRW gaat dat beter, want ik heb hier een regionale ticket van het openbaar vervoer.

Fasulye-Babylonia


Ik geloof niet dat de Belgische spoorwegen zo duur zijn. Toen ik eerst naar mijn nieuwe school ging, vond ik het vreselijk en ik liep weg, dan probeerde ik naar mijn zuster te gaan en bij haar te blijven. Ze woont in Brussel en ik moest dus met de trein. ik heb wel een kaart gekocht en ik had genoeg geld ervoor. Er zijn bepaalde dingen gebuurd wat ik hier niet wil vertellen, maar ik bleef een weekend bij haar en dan moest ik terug. Dat is jammer dat door het geld je de plaats niet kan bezoeken. dan is er het toegangsprijs ook, natuurlijk. Ik zou je het geld kunnen geven maar ik heb geen idee hoe. ik koop niet graag dingen en ga nooit winkelen dus met mijn wekelijkse inkomen weet ik niet wat ik ermee moet behalve 4 keer per jaar geef ik 25€ aan een goede doel voor arme kinderen in landen zoals India.


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