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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3217 of 3959
25 March 2013 at 12:03am | IP Logged 
Flarioca has convinced me that the two verbal forms still should be kept in the system as separate entities - verbs like fazer, ver, vir are so common that you have to take them seriously. But even with some exceptions among a number of very frequent verbs it seems to me that Portuguese has established a zone somewhere between finite and infinite constructions which you don't find even in its nearest relatives like Spanish.

Apart from that I have spent most of the day organizing my travelogue and photo collection. Not only because of the recent trip to Madeira, which added 168 photos to my collection, but also because I hadn't had time to glue several hundred photos from Cuba into my photo album no. 45 - I have been busy ever since I returned from Havana around mid January.

While I was working at my computer I have had some videos playing in the background, including a few in Italian which I found at Scienze TV, and I have also watched TV Ciência in Portuguese as streaming internet TV. I have both those homepages standing on my favorite list in Firefox, but that list has grown a lot over the years and much of it has not been checked recently so there are many dead links. But I really don't have time to do the necessary mopping up.

Right now I'm watching one of the Dutch/Russian videos mentioned by Tarvos for the second time, namely the one about Magadan. The link given by Tarvos needed a minor change in order to function - there were some spaces after the code "URL=". First I thought it was another common error, namely to start a link with "www.. - a link must however contain http://, otherwise the address of HTLAL will precede it on the address line, and you get an error. When I had sorted that out I had to deal with a dialog box urging me to accept cookies, but that dialog box wouldn't shut down so I had to try a second time, and then I got a list with several videos rather than just the one I had expected - but it's even better like that, getting a wider choice is always nice. And now things are finally running smoothly.

Edited by Iversen on 25 March 2013 at 12:39am

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Iversen
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 Message 3218 of 3959
25 March 2013 at 1:12pm | IP Logged 
I was reading a homepage about Anglosaxon grammar to find information for another thread when I saw something that suggested that English actually has got something that resembles the kind of mixed subjunctive and infinitive as in Portuguese, but for a totally different reason, namely that its verbal forms have become so eroded that you can't allways see from the form alone which morphological form a certain term represents:

We also use the subjunctive in noun clauses following verbs of desiring and commanding. For example:

The king desired that the knight go on a quest.
The king commanded that the knight go on a quest.
I suggest that you be a little quieter.
I move that the bypass be routed east of town.
I wish that I were wiser.



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tarvos
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 Message 3219 of 3959
25 March 2013 at 1:18pm | IP Logged 
Sorry bout the link, I kept fumbling with it but it somehow kept screwing up.

Anyway, glad to have been of service!
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Flarioca
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 Message 3220 of 3959
26 March 2013 at 12:41am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
But even with some exceptions among a number of very frequent verbs it seems to me that Portuguese has established a zone somewhere between finite and infinite constructions which you don't find even in its nearest relatives like Spanish.


Yes, it seems that the personal infinitive has only existed in Portuguese, Galician and Mirandese.
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Iversen
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 Message 3221 of 3959
27 March 2013 at 2:02pm | IP Logged 
GR: Χθες διάβασα μερικές σελίδες του ελληνικού οδηγός μου στην Αθήνα (όπως έχω ήδη πει πολλές φορές, γιατί να επιστρέψει ξανά και ξανά). Αυτή τη φορά ήταν ο εθνικός κήπος - για δεύτερη φορά - και στη συνέχεια ο Λυκαβηττος και το Κολωνάκι στο πρόγραμμα σπουδών μου. Πηγαίνει πλέον αρκετά καλά, και αν και αυτό δεν είναι ένα δίγλωσσο κείμενο, αρχίζω να το αντιμετωπίσουμε ως ένδειξη ευχαρίστησης. Αλλά σπάνια χρησιμοποιούν ελληνικά ενεργό, και ποτέ δεν ακούω σχεδόν τη γλώσσα.

BA I: Saya membaca dan disalin juga halaman buku saya di Singapura di Indonesia, tapi di sini jelas bahwa kosakata saya masih terlalu kecil bagi saya untuk membaca tanpa teks bilingual dan / atau kamus. Hal yang baik tentang kamus Tuttle saya adalah bahwa saya bisa melihat akar kata senyawa - hal ini yang sangat penting di bahasa Indonesia dan lainnya bahasa austronesia. Di sisi lain mengisi kata-kata di sisi kanan kertas saya dua kali lebih banyak. Kemarin saya baca di beberapa situs di mana saya tidak pernah adalah.

IR: Chinn mé freisin am chun staidéar na Gaeilge. Chríochnaigh mé alt ó Vicipéid ar an stair teanga na hÉireann, ach tá mé dearmad cheana féin ainmneacha údar a bhí luaite i an earra. An téama is mó ná nach raibh go leor de na scríbhneoirí nuaí ni ón nGaeltacht, mar sin tá sa leabhar acu na Bhéarla tionchar níos láidre ó ná mar a tá i leabhair scríofa ag dúchais Gaeilge labhartha. NB: Tá mé aon smaoineamh cibé an bhfuil na habairte roimhe seo sothuigthe nó nach bhfuil - tá sé struchtúir comparáideacha deacair.

Yesterday evening I read and copied several pages from a number of wellknown old sources, like my guides to Athens in Greek and the one to Singapura in Indonesian plus the bilingual printout from an article in the Irish Vicipéid about the Irish language - and not least its authors. I have already forgotten the author names named in the Irish article, but the point with these comparatively recent authors was that they weren't Irish monoglots or even native speakers, and this evidently opened up for a stronger English influence in their works.

I have several times explained the rationale behind these text copies with notes in the right side of the paper: when you slow down and even write a text fragment by hand you will remember it better than if you just read through the same texts. The downside is of course that it takes much longer time, but measured on the amount of things I write down for later scrutiny I get more from twenty lines studied intensively than from one hour of 'free' extensive reading. There are other good reasons for free extensive reading, but I'm not quite there with Irish - my Potter book is still waiting for me on the shelf.

Btw. I tried some 'inverse' translation. I have done it before, but not made it a standard procedure. One reason is that when I finally am able to do a translation on the fly back from a translation then my reading skills are normally so advanced that I have stopped writing down L2->L1 translations. But as a sporadic activity it can still be worthwhile, although I have to use the machine translations on my bilingual printouts instead of personally made translations. One of these days I should watch Luca's videos to see how he deals with this problem.


Edited by Iversen on 27 March 2013 at 3:12pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3222 of 3959
01 April 2013 at 11:35pm | IP Logged 
I have returned from my Easter holiday in the company of my family. Sometimes I wonder how people with family around them all them time get any studying done, but I have nevertheless managed to reach some point in the middle of Russian "по" - and as everything familiar with that language knows then it is a vast area to cover in a few hours. I also read some old printouts, include one in Greek stating that language learning keeps your brain fit (everybody here would like that to be true), something about the relationship between Dutch and Afrikaans (historical and linguistical) and other things. I watched more German than Danish or Anglophone TV, but not much else than those three plus one news broadcast in Dutch. Btv. I didn't know where a certain channel called something like Telesur came from before the president of Venezuela died during one of my earlier family visits. Now I know, and I even noticed an expression, something like "the television from the South about the North" (in Spanish). And then my sister returned a book about the French castles in the Loire valley, which she borrowed from me in 2006 - where we all three rode from castle to castle in a minuscule car called a Ka for a fortnight.

FR: Bien que c'est un peu tard je voudrait ajouter quelques détails sur ce voyage. Ma soeur avait pendant une periode il y a longtemps un ami français qui travaillait au Danemark, et qui retournait à son pays après avoir vu plus d'endroits ici au Danemark que la grande majorité des Danois. Donc elle parle le français couramment, mais pas exactement comme les français le font .. ce qui drôlement revoque certaines discussions récentes sur la notion de 'fonctionalité'. La langue de ma soeur certainement fonctionne ...beaucoup et bien. Chaque fois que nous avons visité un château elle elle a engagé tant les employés que les autres visiteurs en discussions vives en français, et il était parfaitement clair qu'ils l'ont compris. Mon français à moi fonctionne aussi, quoique avec beaucoup plus de parcimonie. Or je m'imagine que je fasse moins d'erreurs et que ma prononciation soit un petit peu moins exotique. Ici maintenant au Danemark je doute qu'elle ait beaucoup de possibilités pour pratiquer son français, mais nous avons assez de touristes ici pour tenir son allemand en bonne forme.

GR: "Όσοι κάνουν εντατικά μαθήματα για να μάθουν καλά μια ξένη γλώσσα σε σύντομο χρονικό διάστημα, προκαλούν διόγκωση του εγκεφάλου τους, ιδίως ορισμένων συγκεκριμένων τμημάτων, σύμφωνα με μια νέα σουηδο-γερμανική επιστημονική έρευνα". Όπως αναφέρθηκε παραπάνω, όλοι μας έχουμε έναν καλό λόγο να ελπίζουμε ότι αυτό είναι σωστό. Βρήκα πιθανώς αρχικό το άρθρο στην ιστοσελίδα Greekradar.gr, αλλά όταν ήθελα να το βρείτε πάλι για να το παραθέσω εδώ, ανακάλυψα ότιυπάρχει επίσης στην ιστοσελίδα Healthpost.gr, και έτσι έχω βρεθεί μια άλλη σχετική πηγή ενδιαφέρουσες πληροφορίες σχετικά με το ψυχολογία και άλλα θέματα. Και ποιος δεν διαβάζεται σαν ότι "Το διάβασμα ωφελεί σημαντικά την υγεία";

EDIT: mot inexistant remplacé - selon Google le mot *fluemment a été utilisé 459 fois, mais le plus souvent par des personnes non francophones.


Edited by Iversen on 02 April 2013 at 10:33am

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 Message 3223 of 3959
02 April 2013 at 7:10am | IP Logged 
QUOTE Iversen: "Bien que c'est un peu tard je voudrait ajouter quelques détails sur ce voyage. Ma soeur avait pendant une periode il y a longtemps un ami français qui travaillait au Danemark, et qui retournait à son pays après avoir vu plus d'endroits ici au Danemark que la grande majorité des Danois. Donc elle parle le français fluemment,"

FRA: Pardon, mais le mot "fluemment" (= fluent in English) n'existe pas en francais. Mon dictionaire traduit "fliessend sprechen" comme "parler couramment".

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 02 April 2013 at 10:45am

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Iversen
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 Message 3224 of 3959
03 April 2013 at 12:33am | IP Logged 
Right now there is "Españoles en el Mundo" from TVE on my TV, but earlier this evening I have been watching the History Channel, and even though it primarily is Anglophone it has many programs in other languages, including some which are multilingual.

A FR: Dou Chanson Roland:

Carles li reis, nostre emper[er]e magnes
Set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne:
Tresqu'en la mer cunquist la tere altaigne.
N'i ad castel ki devant lui remaigne;
(...)Li reis Marsilie esteit en Sarraguce.
(...)Blancandrins fut des plus saives paiens: (...)


FR: D'abord j'ai regardé un programme qui discutait les conditions historiques de la célèbre Chanson de Roland. Ce poème - qui marque le début de la litérature française - nomme comme adversaires de l'empéreur Charlemagne les "païens", et gtraditinellement on a reconnu sous ce nom les maures, que possédait presque toute la péninsule Ibérique (et qui aurait avoir pu regner aussi une partie de la France si le aïeul de Charlemagne, Charles Martel, ne les avait pas vaincu à Poitier. Mais maintenant la plupart des historiens sont d'aacord que les adversaires n'ont pas pu être les musulmans, car ils n'était tout bonnement pas sur place dans les Pyrenées près de Roncesvalles. à leur place on croit maintenant que c'était des guérilleros basques (ou Vascons) qui ont attaqué l'arrière-garde de l'armée de Charlemagne et tué Roland et ses compagnons.

CAT: El locutor del programa parlava francès, però les entrevistes van ser en francés, espanyol i català, i jo suposo que es parlava també basc durant les escènes de lluita escenificades.

Afterwards I watched the second part of a series about the Croatian kings, this time first and foremost about Trpimir, who founded a dynasty, but was succeeded by an unrelated nobleman Domagoj, who fought against both Venetians and Mohammedan pirates. For instance it was mentioned that Dubrovnik was besieged by the latter, but with the help of the Byzantine emperor Basileios I the siege was broken. Later Domagoj conquered Bari in Italy, which had come under Mohammedan rule. Basileios tried to use the absence of Domagoj to impose a son of Trpimir as ruler, but Domagoj came back and killed this man and his helpers. However after his death in 876 another son of Trpimir got the Croatian throne.

I have not learned Croatian - although I did study the closely related Serbian language for a short period 2009. I did however try to follow the Croatian speech closely ('as a bloodhound') while keeping an eye on the subtitles, and I could understand quite a lot of words because of parallels to Russian. The rule in such experiments is of course not to let unknown words or noise slow you down, you have to keep listening. And I am totally convinced that I could learn to understand spoken languages several times faster if I had an ample supply of similar materials in other languages (in addition to G.L.O.S.S and similar sources).

BA I: Selain itu, saya telah mempelajari halaman di Indonesia pada saya sekarang panduan terkenal ke Singapura, ..

LAT: .. et paginam in latinam copiavi ex Harrii Potteri (scena ubi domina Vislia furiosa liberatores Harrii recepit)


Edited by Iversen on 06 April 2013 at 11:34am



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