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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 3113 of 3959
04 December 2012 at 11:18am | IP Logged 
I wrote something in the thread about English as a Scandinavian language, but then I noticed the title of the thread. In that thread we somehow came into a discussion about a certain pseudo-genitival construction, which in Norwegian has been dubbed "garbegenitiv" (for examples, see below). The 'garpegenitiv' in Norwegian is probably a late medieval loan from Low German, but the construction is used in all the 'Ingwäonish' languages: Dutch, Afrikaans, Platt (and Plaut) and presumbaly also Frisian. The Wikipedia in Nynorsk describes the situation in Norwegian as follows:

På bokmål blir eigedomstilhøve ordinært markert med den klitiske partikkelen -s:
Maris bil, Oles sykkel, NRKs programtilbod, NSBs styre, Danmarks konge
Denne s-en ser ut som ei bøyingsending, men oppfører seg meir som ein postposisjon, eller ein klitisk partikkel. Medan ei bøyingsending ville ha vorte lagt til ordet som er kjernen i setningsleddet, blir klitiske partiklar lagt til heile leddet, jf. at det heiter (mannen i gata)-s meining, og ikkje mannen-s i gata meining.

Ledd av typen NRKs programtilbod kling ikkje bra på nynorsk, og dette blir vanlegvis skrive om med ein preposisjon:
bilen til Mari, sykkelen åt Ole, programtilbodet frå NRK, styret i NSB, kongen av Danmark
Slik omskriving er alltid mogleg på bokmål òg.

Garpegenitiven er eit «kompromiss» som i dag er heilt vanleg å bruka både i bokmål og nynorsk:
Mari sin bil, Ole sin sykkel, NRK sitt programtilbod, NSB sitt styre, Danmark sin konge
Her er endinga -s bytt ut med eit sjølvstendig ord.

I samband med namn kan ein få setningskonstruksjonar som:
Taðēr e hass Ōɽa si bōk. («Det der er hans Ola si bok.»)
(...)

Namnet på denne forma, garpegenitiv, kjem frå «garp» (eit gammalnorsk ord for «storskrytar») som var eit oppnamn folk i Bergen brukte om tyske kjøpmenn i Hansatida.


As I mentioned in the other thread there are some Elizabethan names of masques (a kind of musical comedy) with 'garpish' names: Waters/Williams/Wilson his love".

Quote myself: "Waters etc. his love" is the nearest thing you can get to the 'garpegenitiv' in a language without an unstressed reflexive pronoun. And the parallel til "bilen til (han) Ola" would be something like "(the) love to him Waters" - which is impossible now and always has been so. English has no need to use "to" here when it has got "of".

Quote Tractor: "In Norwegian we have a construction with "hans" that is not
"garpegenitiv": Olas bil = Ola sin bil = bilen hans Ola = bilen til (han) Ola
(my bold)

I don't know any English pseudo-genitival constructions with "to" (= "til" in Norwegian), but in German "zu" is sometimes used in names for the nobility - as for instance in the name of a certain "Richard Casimir Karl August Robert Konstantin Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg". He is married to a Danish princess, but when a Danish ferry was named in his honor the company used an abbreviated form: "M/F Prins Richard". However in this case it is supposedly a person who 'owns' a domain. It is funny that the Germans also have the precise opposite construction with "von", and it is almost breathtaking to read certain extremely long names:

Mariae Gloria Fer(di)nanda Joachima Josephine Wilhelmine Huberta Gräfin von Schönburg-Glauchau (Taufname) trägt seit ihrer Heirat 1980 den amtlichen Familiennamen Prinzessin von Thurn und Taxis und nennt sich seit 1982 gemäß den traditionellen Richtlinien des privat organisierten Adelsrechtsausschusses Mariae Gloria Fürstin von Thurn und Taxis, obwohl seit der Abschaffung der Standesvorrechte des Adels 1919 nur der Titel „Prinz“ (/„Prinzessin“), nicht jedoch der vordem in Primogenitur gewährte Erstgeburtstitel „Fürst“ ihres verstorbenen Mannes, Bestandteil des bürgerlichen Namens ist.

Notice the "Mariae gloria" (Not "Maria Gloria") - it literally means "glory of Mary"!
It is also weird to see a title in the middle of (or in principle as part of) a name:
"Richard Casimir Karl August Robert Konstantin Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg".
"Mariae Gloria Fürstin von Thurn und Taxis"

Btw. Ludwig van Beethoven got into trouble when the Austrian society buffs discovered that his "van" didn't indicate a noble lineage - he was just 'Ludwig from the cabbage orchard'. But who cares about the grey boring von's of his day? And Carl Maria (von) Weber died before anybody noticed that he actually didn't have any "von" in his name.

Edited by Iversen on 04 December 2012 at 12:01pm

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Iversen
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 Message 3114 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 2:33am | IP Logged 
IC: Ég þurfti eitthvað til að lesa á íslensku og fekk því hugmynd að nota grein í Wikipedia um skák. Skák er auðvitað frábært tómstundagaman fyrir lengri dökku veturkvöldin, og Ísland hefur haft nokkra góða leikmenn. Ég tók eftir því að skákgyðjan Caissa samkvæmt greininni var "fundin upp" af Sir William Jones - kannski hin frægasta hyperpolyglot sem uppgötvaði að sanskrít var Indo-European tungumál?

NNO: Eg fortsatte å lese om sjakk på andre språk: fra islandsk gikk tura til nynorsk, der eg bemerka at Norge har fått ei nytt stort navn i denne sporten: Magnus Carlsen. Jeg slo ham opp og fant flere artikler sem forutså at han blir den neste verdensmesteren - å tenke seg, eg visste ikkje noko om gutta før eg leste disse artiklene!

NO B: citat fra Aftenposten: "De berømte skakkspillerne går på rekke inn i festsalen i Bilbaos rådhus. Først kommer Topalov, kjent for dårlig klessmak, usportslig oppførsel og for å tilhøre den ypperste sjakkeliten. Så Judit Polgar, sin fars verdensberømte eksperiment: Kunne han, hvis han begynte da hun var spedbarn, trene datteren til å bli sjakkstjerne? Judit er nå 31 og verdens suverent beste kvinne. Så Karjakin, det anemiske stortalentet med skjeggvekst kun fra føflekker. Og desidert yngst, og minst tilfreds i denne seansen, Magnus Carlsen, fra sjakkens u-land, Norge. Tause står spillerne ved siden av hverandre, som i en Miss Universe-kåring. Og rundt dem, en mengde pressefolk og prominente beundrere, med blitz og måpende øyne. Alt etter som ser de et freakshow/seks kunstnere/intellektuelle sportsutøvere. Slik er sjakkens image.

PLA: Die nahste Sprook wöör Platt, un Wikipedie höff een gode lange Bidrag över Schach, un hier gifft's de beropene Weetenkoornlegende: "De Utfinner Siisa Ibn Dahir sall van sein Herrscher fordert hemm, hüm as Lohn de 64 Felder van dat Speelbrett up folgende Oort um Wies mit Weetenkortn optofüllen: Up dat eerste Feld een Weetenkoorn , up dat tweede twee Koorns, up dat deerde 4 Koords (..) Dorför reichen aber all Arnte up de Welt siet Anfang van de Weetenanbo tosommen nich ut" Wat heeft de Herrscher daan? Mien Giss: er hett dat Kop vun de freche Buss laten abhacken.

RO: Wikipedia românească a avut doar un articol foarte scurt despre șah, așa că am găsit în schimb un articol în revista 'Revista' pe internet (din pacate fără caracterele speciale românești, dar cu un conținut destul de amuzant). Aici am citit pe un alt număr mare: informaticianul Claude Shannon a estimat în 1950 că "numarul de de mutari posibile in sah este de 10 la puterea 120, care a devenit 'Numarul lui Shannon'. Ca o curiozitate, acest numar este mai mare decat numarul total al atomilor din univers".

I have been through a number of chess articles in a number of languages today. First I felt that I ought to do something about my Icelandic, and one of the things Iceland traditionally has been known for - apart from volcanoes and fish - is chess (not a bad choice in a country with long and dark winter evenings). So I checked the Icelandic Wikipedia for something about that subject. There was of course an article, but not very long, so from Icelandic I proceeded to the New Norwegian Wikipedia and found another short article - but it mentioned a new star in the world of chess, a young Norwegian grandmaster named Magnus Carlsen, who apparently already has got an Elo ranking that is higher than that of Kasparov when he still was at his peak. Well well, I haven't followed the chess news for some years - I played the game as an amateur until the mid 80s, but dropped it because I had the choice between entering a club or playing against people I could match when I played blindfolded, and I chose to drop the game. As a consequence my interest in the game has waned asymptotically towards zero, and therefore I was quite unaware about the possibility that a Norwegian could become the next world master. And frankly I think the Norwegians are just as surprised.

I found and read a couple of other articles about this young chess genius, but continued to Wikipedia in Low German where I found a slightly more detailed article, which among other things included the tale about the alleged inventor of the game, who asked from his monarch a gift calculated as follows: on the first of the 64 fields on the board he wanted just one wheat grain, on the second two, on the third four and so on. Before the 64. field the number of grains would be larger than the total number of grains resulting from the cultivation of wheat since people invented agriculture. Unfortunately the article doesn't mention what the ruler did in this situation. My guess is that he had the head chopped off the cheeky inventor. Sometimes it pays not to be too smart..

Finally I had a peek at the Romanian article about chess, but it was also fairly short so I googled and found something else, namely an article in the internet magazine "Revista" (which actually means 'magazine'). Among sundry other articles about strange subjects there was one about chess, where another large number was mentioned. Apparently an informaticist named Shannon wanted to invent a chess playing computer around 1950, and as part of his studies for this project he calculated the number of possible moves in the game. The result was 10 raised to the 120. power, which is more than the total number of atoms in the univers - this number is now called "Shannon's number".

Let me finish this cruise through chess country with a piece of information from the Icelandic article: allegedly it was Sir William Jones who (re)invented the chess goddess Caissa. Sir William who? you may ask. Well, it could be the famous hyperpolyglot who also noticed that Sanskrit was related to a number of European languages and who thereby discovered the Indoeuropean language family. So in this contrived way one of my former hobbies left a pointer towards one of my current occupations.


Edited by Iversen on 06 December 2012 at 3:39am

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lingoleng
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 Message 3115 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 3:14am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
but it mentioned a new star in the world of chess, a young Norwegian grandmaster named Magnus Carlson,

Hello Iversen, I am sure Magnus is used to seeing his name spelled in many different ways, just as people often think he is Danish, or Swedish, or something similar?!, but if anybody wants to google the young chess genius: His name is Magnus Carlsen.
He is a great player, indeed, and people who want to see him play can find many quite exciting videos of the Blitz World Championships of the past years on youtube. Just a possible starting point: Caruana vs. Carlsen

Edited by lingoleng on 06 December 2012 at 3:18am

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Iversen
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 Message 3116 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 3:30am | IP Logged 
My apologies to Magnus Carlsen
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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 3117 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 10:50am | IP Logged 
As a Norwegian who grew up in the town where Magnus Carlsen was born, and who currently live in the
community where he lives (purely coincidental that we have moved from the same town to the same town) I
am not at all surprised that he reached the peak. I have read about him in the local press for years, and we
are very, very proud of him. I suspect he is an Aspie, he is not the most sociable guy around, but outside the
chess world he has done photo shoots with the actress Liv Tyler, from The Lord of the Rings. I bet all his
class mates were literally green with envy. I think he also happens to be the greatest chess talent ever.

As for garpegenetiv in bokmål I do not agree with the Wikipedia in Nynorsk saying that it is so common in
Bokmål. I was corrected if I ever used that form, and I would correct my children had they ever used that
form. I very rarely hear an educated adult use it. I would hear it from a child or an adult who was keen on
stressing his working class background or political views. It is not wrong to use it, but it is one of the very
many tiny markers in Norwegian who tell people about you education level or political views.
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tarvos
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 Message 3118 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 11:02am | IP Logged 
That construction is also very dialectal in Dutch, although I think my mother uses it
quite a bit (because it seems to be common where she's from). Actually sometimes I wish
she spoke stronger dialect rather than the standard Dutch she speaks now, but that's her
job I guess.

Personally I like these colloquialisms. They add flavour to speech, and it's not
grammatically horrific.

Edited by tarvos on 06 December 2012 at 11:02am

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Iversen
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 Message 3119 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 1:27pm | IP Logged 
AF: Die garpse konstruksie is beskikbaar in Nederlands en Platt, maar nie frequent nie. Dikwijls word ze gebruik presies want die is 'n bietjie komies, maar op Afrikaans is die heel frequent, selfs in 'n sober kontekste. Bijvoorbeeld in "Die Burger":

Sosiale media gons oor Kate se swangerskap

Kate se naarheid kán gevaarlik wees

Dít ten spyte daarvan dat die Amerikaanse federale speurdiens (FBI) en dié land se departement van justisie reeds die saak ondersoek.

Dat 'n president so die armes se geld kan steel vir eie gewin en dink hy kan daarmee wegkom ((die Burger)

Op Afrikaans word sooms ook "zn" of "z'n" gebruik as 'n plaasvervanger vir "se" (geërf uit die Nederlandse), maar in die meeste gevalle is dit nie gedoen in 'n Garpe konstruksie nie

Fête in Kevn zn huis!!   (een gebruiker van Facebook)

Machu Picchu op zn kop (een photo op Flickr)


EN: I simply don't know what the 'garpish' construction is called in English so I'll use the Norwegian term. It is known from several 'Ingwäonian' languages: Platt, Dutch and Afrikaans, plus the North Germanic language Norwegian and in certain periods also English. But apparently it has often been seen as something that didn't belong to cultivated speech. So I was slightly surprised to find that a few peeks into the homepage of an Afrikaans newspaper gave a fair number of examples. In contrast I have looked several pages of Frisian today without finding one single example. This doesn't prove that it doesn't exist there, but it can't be as common as in Die Burger. I know I have seen it in Low German, but even there it is quite rare.


Edited by Iversen on 06 December 2012 at 1:30pm

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Solfrid Cristin
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 Message 3120 of 3959
06 December 2012 at 1:52pm | IP Logged 
Have you looked at any Norwegian newspapers? If you find it, it would be more likely to find it in Dagsavisen
than in Aftenposten.


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