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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2529 of 3959
31 July 2011 at 7:40pm | IP Logged 
Du: Eigenlijk niet. Het punt is dat de Duitse taal een sterke tendens heeft om alle finite werkwoorden aan de laatste positie te zetten. Het Nederlands heeft een tendens, maar lang niet in dezelfde mate. En ik kan al nu elke vuistregels zien, maar ek moet het onderwerp met behulp van meer bronnen bestuderen.

I really don't feel that everything is fluid. Just after two pages of examples there are some relatively clear patterns and rules of thumb, and even though you may from some reason deviate from these there is definitely some kind of system. I'll study this subject a little further (also in other sources) because this is one of the things where I feel that my intuitions about Dutch often are wrong. It is a nice little well-defined subject which can be elucidated by making and studying a suitably sized collection of examples.

Edited by Iversen on 31 July 2011 at 11:54pm

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numerodix
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 Message 2530 of 3959
31 July 2011 at 7:49pm | IP Logged 
I didn't mean to say that the rules in Dutch are fluid and unclear, but that learning
these rules has disturbed my pretty clear intuitions with respect to English.

It used to be that when I saw Dutch people who write English with Dutch word order I
would immediately see that it's incorrect, but now I don't really notice it as much.

Edited by numerodix on 31 July 2011 at 7:50pm

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Fasulye
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 Message 2531 of 3959
31 July 2011 at 10:34pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
DU: Ik heb maar de treinreis naar huis gebruikt om de woordvolgorde van Nederlandse bijzinnen te studeren, en ik deed dit door alle voorbeelden uit de eerste ongeveer 30 pagina's in "Heel Rome een Het Vaticaan" op te merken op een stuk papier en ze volgens te verdeelen naar verschillende criteria. De volgende stap is over het onderwerp in mijn Nederlandse grammatica te lezen om te controleren of mijn waarnemingen overeenkomen met die regels van het boek.


NL: Ik ben toen met mijn schoolklas in Rome geweest en heb daar het Vatikaan bezocht. Volgens mij was dat in 1978, dus toen sprak ik nog geen enkel woord Italiaans. Het lijkt me een goed idee om "Nederlandse toerist" te spelen en de nodige touristische informatie in een andere L2 - taal te lezen. Het kan natuurlijk ook in het Italiaans zelf, maar ik doe dat soort dingen ook.

Fasulye



Edited by Fasulye on 31 July 2011 at 10:35pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2532 of 3959
01 August 2011 at 11:01am | IP Logged 
Fasulye wrote:
Het lijkt me een goed idee om "Nederlandse toerist" te spelen en de nodige touristische informatie in een andere L2 - taal te lezen.


DU: Ik heb echt niet nagedacht over hoe het zou zijn zo'n Nederlander te spelen in Italië, maar het zal ook niet gebeuren. Het is reeds exotisch genoeg Deens te zijn. Als ik Italië bezoek probeer ik steeds te spreken en te denken in het Italiaans, maar toen ik stond aan die schijf in het Vaticaan en dachte eraan welk gids te kiezen, dan dachte ik reeds op mijn bookje-situatie thuis. Ik heb een aantal boeken in het Italiaans, maar zeer weinig in het Nederlands. Bij 10 € was zo'n Nederlandse gids met mooie foto's en een relevant onderwerp een goede oplossing.

GR: Κατά του λοιπά, αγόρασα μερικές φορές μερικές εκδόσεις του ίδιου οδηγούς - για παράδειγμα, αγόρασα ένα οδηγός για τους Δελφούς στα ρωσικά, ελληνικά και ιταλικά, όταν επισκέφθηκα αυτό το μέρος. Αλλά δεν πέρασε της εκδόσεις ρωσική και ιταλική γιατί η παθητική ελληνική μου ήταν αρκετά καλή. Έχω παρατηρήσει ότι οι διαφορετικές εκδόσεις των οδηγών συχνά είναι αρκετά ακριβές μετάφρασεις του πρωτότυπου, σε αντίθεση με πολλές μεταφράσεις της λογοτεχνίας. Οι μεταφραστές δεν έχουν το ίδιο ευγενείς φιλοδοξίες, και αυτό είναι καλό.

I had to think about Fasulye's idea about going to Italy and pretending to be a Dutch tourist, but being Danish is already somewhat exotic, and besides I'm not a good actor (nor a good Dutch speaker). Actually I try hard to think and and speak in Italian and Italian only while I'm there - no need to complicate matters. However when I stood at that desk in the Vatican bookshop I was already thinking about my book collection at home, which contains several books (plus magazines) in Italian, but very little in Dutch - so here I could buy a book with pretty pictures and a relevant theme in Dutch for just 10 €. The choice wasn't difficult, and it was only the restrictions on the size and weight of handluggage in cheap airplanes that kept me from buying a lot more.

By the way, I have sometimes bought several editions of the same guide books - for instance I bought a glossy guide to Delphoi in parallel Russian, Greek and Italian while I visited that place. I actually didn't use the Russian and Italian versions because my passive 'tourist Greek' proved to be sufficiently good for reading the Greek one, but at an earlier stage in my language learning it might have been a good buy. Those different versions of tourist guides tend to be pretty literal translations of each other, unlike many translations of literature. The translators simply don't have the same lofty aspirations, and that's good.


Edited by Iversen on 01 August 2011 at 11:25am

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Iversen
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 Message 2533 of 3959
01 August 2011 at 12:03pm | IP Logged 
I just stumpled over this site with introductions to a lot of old languages: Early Indo-European Online. But the title is somewhat misleading, because there are introductions to things like Olde Irish, Tocharian, Old French and Armenian - yes, they are Indoeuropean, but from the title I had only expected an introduction to the reconstructed Common European (or Proto-Indoeuropean), but the site seems to be more practical than puzzle solving in its attitude. Which is a good thing. Its courses basically contain two kinds of materials:

1) texts: a few lines are quoted, and then every single word in those lines are translated and commented

2) a mixture of background information including the history and grammar of each language




Edited by Iversen on 01 August 2011 at 2:40pm

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 Message 2534 of 3959
01 August 2011 at 12:38pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Fasulye wrote:
Het lijkt me een goed idee om "Nederlandse toerist" te spelen en de nodige touristische informatie in een andere L2 - taal te lezen.


DU: Ik heb echt niet nagedacht over hoe het zou zijn zo'n Nederlander te spelen in Italië, maar het zal ook niet gebeuren. Het is reeds exotisch genoeg Deens te zijn. Als ik Italië bezoek probeer ik steeds te spreken en te denken in het Italiaans, maar toen ik stond aan die schijf in het Vaticaan en dachte eraan welk gids te kiezen, dan dachte ik reeds op mijn bookje-situatie thuis. Ik heb een aantal boeken in het Italiaans, maar zeer weinig in het Nederlands. Bij 10 € was zo'n Nederlandse gids met mooie foto's en een relevant onderwerp een goede oplossing.


NL: Ik bedoelde "Nederlandse tourist spelen" ironisch, maar bij het gebruik van de schriftlijke taal is de ironie van mij niet duidelijk geworden. Ik dacht helemaal niet aan iets acteren. Bovendien gedragen zich Nederlandse touristen niet anders dan Deense of Duitse touristen. Ik vond het in mijn geval handig om een Nederlandse gids over Denemarken ter voorbereiding van de reis te lezen en meetenemen naar het congres. En bovendien heeft mijn reisgenote ook het Nederlands als vreemde taal geleerd, zodat ik aan haar tijdens de treinreis informatie over touristische bezienswaardigheden in Kopenhagen in het Nederlands kon voorlezen.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 01 August 2011 at 12:53pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2535 of 3959
03 August 2011 at 12:01am | IP Logged 
IT: In questo momento sto ascoltanto (e talora) guardando Raiuno, ove se mi presenta ancora un programma nella splendida seria Passaggio al Ovest, questa volta con la Statua della Libertà, la Torre Eiffel e l'Amazzonia (Iquitos, delfini di fiume e altri temi). Ma anche nell'autobus-ritornando-dal-mio-lavoro mi sono occupato della lingua Italiana: ho letto parte di un minuscolo libro di Paolo Melis: "Civiltà Nuragica". Questa civiltà megalitica nasce circa 1700 a.C. , e nello libro la storia si continua fino al "Nuragica VB" romano. I templi di Malta sono più vecchi, essendo costruiti da circa 3.800 a.C. fino a circa 2.500 a.C., ma l'autore no menziona nessuna influenza di essi sull'archittettura nuragica di Sardegna. Purtroppo non avevo tempo per visitare questi edifici durante la mia brevissima visita nel mese passato. ... E giusto in questo momento la TV mostra maschere di legno da Burkina Faso .. hehe, le ho visto già in Gennaio durante la mia visita qua. Lì hanno probabilmente pensato che avessi trovato qualcosa di veramente esotico, ma oggi è difficile sorprenderci.

I watch Raiuno while writing this: Passaggio al Ovest (the Northwest passage), and right now they show wooden masks from Burkina Faso. But that's not exotic enough - I visited B.F. this year in January. My bus-reading today: "Civiltà Nuragica" in Italian, bought in Olbia on Sardegna (Sardinia). It is a koncise, but very informative little book about some strange stone buildings that turned up on that island from around 1700 b.C. and continued to be build for a couple of thousand years (depending on the definitions). The oldest were just big stone heaps with internal corridors, but later these developed into wellbuilt towers with internal pseudocupolas and up to three storeys, and these towers even later became the centers of something that could be interpreted as real fortresses. Unfortunately I didn't have time to drive around on the island during my recent visit.

PS: Ho letto alla Wikipedia Italiana qualcosa sulle nuraghe, e qui ho anche trovato un riferimento al ziqqurath di Monte d'Accoddi (presso Sassari) che - secondo alcuni ricercatori - potrebbe essere il risultato di contatti coi sumeri, forse nella forma di un vero flusso migratorio. Ma allora si avrebbe potuto aspettare iscrizioni - e sulla isola non esistano iscrizioni prima della epoca greca e (poi) punica.     

Edited by Iversen on 03 August 2011 at 12:37am

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Iversen
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 Message 2536 of 3959
04 August 2011 at 10:21pm | IP Logged 
IT: .. e in questo momento sto ascoltando Quark a raiuno. Ma ho anche visto televisione spagnolo, inglese/americano, tedesco e danese stasera.


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