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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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lingoleng
Senior Member
Germany
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605 posts - 1290 votes 

 
 Message 2281 of 3959
26 February 2011 at 8:26pm | IP Logged 
Meelämmchen wrote:
I don't think this poem is very common these days in Germany. Maybe it was hundred years ago. Maybe it also isn't intended to be that much pedagogical. All children's stories have a moral, don't they? At least they combine entertaining with a bit of moral teaching. But in this specific poem on a first glance you do not have a moral lesson, it's just portraying the lamb who gets hurt and always is beh-ing afterwards. I like this way very much, because without a primary lesson you have still room for phantasy and can imagine the poor lamb and get to the 'lesson', if such a thing was intended at all, by yourself.
Well, I also never had thought too much a about children education before. But isn't there such a thing as sadism or a drive to torture animals in some children? Also I think that there is a education that ignores animals or which is trying to appease the children on this regard. And I think it's the dominant one. What have your parents said to you when you cried so long? I also remember when I first realized that birds in the winter can die (or can die at all), probably when I encountered my first aviary. Aren't these the occasions when adults try to persuade you it's all not that bad? And the thing is, adults most times believe this themselves, while children remain sceptic (and most times believe it finally themselves).

Just a little note on these rhymes for children (
     Meelämmchen.    ;  ;           ;
        Mee Lämmchen, mee!
        Das Lämmchen lauft in Wald,
        Da stieß sichs an ein Steinchen,
        That ihm weh sein Beinchen,
        Da schrie das Lämmchen mee!
        Mee Lämmchen, mee!
             Das Lämmchen lauft in Wald,
             Da stieß sichs an ein Stöchelchen,
             That ihm weh sein Köppelchen,
             Da schrie das Lämmchen mee!
        Mee Lämmchen, mee!
             Das Lämmchen lauft in Wald,
             Da stieß sechs an ein Sträuchelchen,
             That ihm weh sein Bäuchelchen,
             Da schrie das Lämmchen mee!
        Mee Lämmchen, mee!
             Das Lämmchen lauft in Wald,
             Da stieß sichs an ein Hölzchen,
             That ihm weh sein Hälschen,
             Da schrie das Lämmchen mee!)
This was and can be sung in a very elementary situation: The mother holds the child, and they are having fun. The mother starts singing, and whenever foot, head and so on are mentioned the mother makes a slightly threatening movement towards the corresponding part of the body, tickles it or similar, and both start - laughing, mee, mee, mee. That's it.
Why all the "threatening negativity" in such a situation? Well, of course, the bad and evil things are evoked,mentioned, but both know that the mother (well, in rare cases this may even be a father ;-) will always protect the child and that nothing bad will ever happen. (This is wrong, of course, but who cares.) It is a strengthening of what is called "Urvertrauen", one of the most important things a child can get from its parents, and little "poems" like "Mee, Lämmchen" serve this purpose.

Edited by lingoleng on 26 February 2011 at 8:34pm

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oz-hestekræfte
Senior Member
Australia
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 Message 2282 of 3959
27 February 2011 at 10:09am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
.

DA: Og derudover har jeg naturligvis et udvalg af halvfærdige ordlister, som bare mangler repetitionskolonnerne - dem kan jeg godt nusse med, selvom min mor og lillesøster og fjernsynet snakker. Og så har jeg just opdaget adskillige tosprogede irsk-danske tekster - men lige for tiden bruger jeg ikke meget tid på irsk.


Jeg gad skrive noget dansk så spørger jeg et spørgesmål: Hvorfor skrev du "just"? Jeg kan forstille mig tre muligheder her. Et og højst sandsynligt, dit engelsk blev blandet med dit dansk ind i hovedet og det engelske ord slippede ud i sætningen. 2 Jeg kiggede lige i ordbogen og just er et dansk ord, men jeg havde ikke set det før. Jeg forstår ikke ordets rigtige betydelse fordi jeg har jo aldrig set det i kontekst. (Medmindre du brugte det lige)! Men jeg gætter på at det danske just passer ikke i denne sætning.
Mulighed 3 er at det engelske or just har sneget sig ind i det danske sprog og DET efter min mening er det værste mulighed.
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Meelämmchen
Diglot
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Germany
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Speaks: German*, English
Studies: Modern Hebrew

 
 Message 2283 of 3959
27 February 2011 at 10:24am | IP Logged 
This practical use is great! Lingoleng, I had no idea since I first read it as an adult and didn't treat it as a song, when infact Morgenlied vom Schäfchen is around there, too (where parents also are caring for sheep ...). So introducing here a mother/father to the scarying, deep forest is really a great sign of hope and can certainly evoke Urvertrauen in little children. But do you know of such ways to sing the other poems in that corner of Des Knaben Wunderhorn, too, for example Bucklicht Männlein or Ammenuhr. I'm wondering whether there the role of the mother is replaced by god.

Edited by Meelämmchen on 27 February 2011 at 10:24am

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tractor
Tetraglot
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Norway
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1349 posts - 2292 votes 
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Studies: French, German, Latin

 
 Message 2284 of 3959
27 February 2011 at 10:26am | IP Logged 
oz-hestekræfte wrote:
Iversen wrote:
.

DA: Og derudover har jeg naturligvis et udvalg af halvfærdige ordlister, som bare mangler
repetitionskolonnerne - dem kan jeg godt nusse med, selvom min mor og lillesøster og fjernsynet snakker. Og så
har jeg just opdaget adskillige tosprogede irsk-danske tekster - men lige for tiden bruger jeg ikke meget tid på
irsk.


Jeg gad skrive noget dansk så spørger jeg et spørgesmål: Hvorfor skrev du "just"? Jeg kan forstille mig tre
muligheder her. Et og højst sandsynligt, dit engelsk blev blandet med dit dansk ind i hovedet og det engelske
ord slippede ud i sætningen. 2 Jeg kiggede lige i ordbogen og just er et dansk ord, men jeg havde ikke set det
før. Jeg forstår ikke ordets rigtige betydelse fordi jeg har jo aldrig set det i kontekst. (Medmindre du brugte det
lige)! Men jeg gætter på at det danske just passer ikke i denne sætning.
Mulighed 3 er at det engelske or just har sneget sig ind i det danske sprog og DET efter min mening er det
værste mulighed.

Ordet just er av latinsk opphav og har kommet inn i skandinavisk gjennom tysk. Det brukes just som Iversen
gjorde.
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Iversen
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 Message 2285 of 3959
27 February 2011 at 8:28pm | IP Logged 
oz-hestekræfte wrote:
Jeg gad skrive noget dansk så spørger jeg et spørgesmål: Hvorfor skrev du "just"?


Tractor has already has answered Oz_hestekræfter's question, but let me elaborate. The word "just" looks like a modern loanword from English, but it is more likely an old loan from Low German (cfr. also "juist" in Dutch) - and ultimately it goes back to Latin "iustus".

1) "Just" in Danish can be used with a temporal meaning: "just a moment" ago: "jeg har just set en ged" (I have just seen a goat). It sounds quite oldfashioned when used in this way - and that's exactly how and why I used the word in my sentence on the preceding page: "Og så har jeg just opdaget adskillige tosprogede irsk-danske tekster" = "And just a moment ago I discovered a number of bilngual Irish-Danish texts".

2) It can also be used with the meaning "exactly": "Og det er just derfor jeg bruger ordet" = "And that's exactly why I use the word". This use is somewhat more common, but still something you use to add an archaique touch to your language.

3) Sometimes you use it to add emphasis to an explanation: 1) the word sounds oldfashioned + 2) I like using oldfashioned words = conclusion "det er just derfor jeg brugte ordet". As a derivation from this you can also use it as a one-word answer with the slightly sarcastic meaning "yes (and congratulations for having found that out)".

By the way: "gad" (infinitive = 'at gide') is also an interesting word. In Icelandic and (presumably) Old Norse: it meant 'to be able to' and is/was constructed with a past participle: "Ég get gert það" = "Jeg kan gøre det" = "I can do it". In Danish this meaning is lost, and instead the meaning of the word changed to "to want sth" = "jeg gad vidst" = hyperliterally "I wanted known" = "I would like to know". And this has developed into 'to feel like doing something' (or not): "Jeg gider ikke" = "I couldn't be bothered". And the modern Danish construction has an infinitive and not a participle: "jeg gad vide, om ...". Another example: "jeg gider ikke tage til Nordpolen" = "I can't be bothered to go to the North Pole".

---

About the discussion that my brief reference to Meelämmchen's name has caused: most of all I'm surprised at the interest this theme has aroused, but if Meelämmchen can take it I can too.


Edited by Iversen on 28 February 2011 at 1:09pm

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lingoleng
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Germany
Joined 3491 days ago

605 posts - 1290 votes 

 
 Message 2286 of 3959
27 February 2011 at 10:15pm | IP Logged 
Meelämmchen wrote:
But do you know of such ways to sing the other poems in that corner of Des Knaben Wunderhorn, too, for example Bucklicht Männlein or Ammenuhr. I'm wondering whether there the role of the mother is replaced by god.
No, Meelämmchen, I don't know. I got interested in this "Mee Lämmchen" and was glad to be able to contribute to a less problematic interpretation, well, at least I hope so. I am very sure it is intended and was created similar to e.g. "Hoppe hoppe Reiter, wenn er fällt, dann schreit er, fällt er in den Graben, dann fressen ihn die Raben." These are games taken from real life more than poetry (while on the other hand for people like Brentano there was no difference (Universalpoesie), the programmatic unity of natural life and poetry was what they found attractive at these "Volksliedern", but this only spoken aside.) If I find out anything of interest (don't hold your breath) I'll send you a pm.

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Iversen
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 Message 2287 of 3959
28 February 2011 at 12:09am | IP Logged 
GER: "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" ... ich erinnere mich, daß der Komponist Mahler davon sehr beindruckt war. Aber ich habe diese Gedichtsammlung niemals selber gelesen, und ich höre lieber Instrumentalmusik.

LAT: Ego vesperum istem audionem ex Youtubo Latine sermo audiebam - II + VI partes lectionis Aloisii Miraglia de 'humanitate'. Vere non mihi tema ista tantum traheret nisi in Latine dixisset: ego generaliter philosophiam quam praetextum nugas verbosas dicere aestimo, sed una hora de eloquentia lingvae latinae non res frigenda est. Et Miraglia optimus orator est, vocem claram et jucundam habet, et com gaudio notavi quod is "v" quam sonorem consonantem pronunciat - tunc ego non malam conscientiam habere debeo quia ego aeque facio.

I know that Mahler has used "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" in several works, but I haven't read the poems and I prefer instrumental music - also in the case of Gustav Mahler. Besides I have been listening to more than one hour of spoken Latin by a certain 'Aloisius Miraglia' on Youtube (uploaded by 'Baeticus2'. I'm impressed by his free and lively way of speaking this language, and then it doesn't matter that he is speaking about something as amorphous and vague as "Humanism". One thing I in particular like about his speech is that he pronounces the consonant 'v' as such and not as the vowel 'oo' - then I don't have to worry about doing the same thing. However this hourlong lecture in Latin without translations or summary nor subtitles has not attracted many listeners - and 'Alkantre' is the only one to make comments so far.


Edited by Iversen on 28 February 2011 at 1:15pm

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Iversen
Super Polyglot
Moderator
Denmark
berejst.dk
Joined 4896 days ago

9078 posts - 16470 votes 
Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan
Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian
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 Message 2288 of 3959
28 February 2011 at 11:19pm | IP Logged 
SP: En este momento estoy escuchando un programa de televideon en español: "Destino Espãna". No hay nada de particularmente interesante ahí, peró se puede escuchar un montón de gente decir un montón de cosas en español, y es tan fácil de seguir que yo puedo en el mismo tiempo escribir aquí en HTLAL.

Right now I'm listening to Spanish TV, where there is a program called "Destino Espãna" where we meet foreigners who live an Spain and lo and behold: sometimes I simply can't hear whether they are Spaniards or not - for instance right now I am listening to Swedish woman who has lived for 10 years in the town Málaga which I haven't visited since 1975 (shame on me!). And apart from her blond hair I wouldn't have guessed that she weren't Spanish - though maybe not Malagueña. And now the program is over, but there is another program called "En Familia" which has the same characteristics, apart from the touristical episodes.

In one of the other threads there is a discussion about the ability to switch fast from language to language. I do this passively all the time when I listen to TV or internet TV, or when I surf around on the internet. I sometimes get the chance to do it during my travels - for instance I was constantly switching between Danish, English and French during my recent voyage to Mali and Burkina Faso. Apart from that I mainly do it when I'm thinking at the same time that I have external sources to disturb me. And that's exactly what is happening now. I'm thinking partly in Spanish, partly in English and partly in Danish, and if someone asked me to speak one of lthese languages right now it would not be a problem. But what would happen if it was an Italian or Dutch person?

I have been thinking about ways to strengthen my thinking in other languages, and the episode I mentioned in the 'nerd' thread illustrate the role of outside stimulation. In brief, I was listening to a Latin lecture while reading Danish subtitles on my TV set. And I suddenly noticed that I was translating the subtitles into (bad) Latin. I remember other episodes, for instance I have tried to translate Spanish on the fly into Catalan in order to better at thinking in that language - but in that case I chose to try this technique.

Whether or not these episodes resulted from a conscious decision they suggest to me that it might be worth exploring multilingual disturbances even when you work with one specific language - things that happen around you will be integrated into the world of the language you are working on, and hopefully the exercise will make you more versatile. But probably only with languages above a certain treshold - you can't multitask with languages that demand all your attention.

'nuff said.

Edited by Iversen on 01 March 2011 at 12:11pm



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