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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Hobbema
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 Message 1865 of 3959
01 June 2010 at 6:14pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
LAT: Non credo contra mores temporis medioevalibus renascimentisque esse musicam vocalem instrumentaliter efficere - re vera saepe istud facebant ipsi musici veteres, et in chartibus musicalibus interdum scribebant "per voci aut instrumenti". Impressiones phonographices quas heri auscultavi tamen rarissimae sunt quia solum per instrumentibus effectas, et longe mihi fuit eas colligere. "Cantus Palestinensis" de Walther von der Vogelweide circa 1220 per quintae expeditioni crucis factus est. In Youtube in multibus versionibus exstat, sed infeliciter non per instrumentis sine vocibus. Landini musicus caecus erat qui vixit circa anno domini 1300 in Italia. Pictus est cum organo portativo, sed dificilissime est musica eius sine vocibus reperire. Musica instrumentalis vetus saepe musica per saltare est et anonyma, quam saltarello ista.

--

I don't think it is against the spirit of the Medieval period and the Renaissance to play their vocal music on instruments - actually some scores state that the music can be sung OR played on instruments. But the pieces I heard yesterday are rare, and it took me a long time to prey them from a multitude of sources, where they more often that not were buried among sung songs. Therefore it is also difficult to direct you to instrumental versions on for instance Youtube. I tried to find such versions of some of the oldest composers.And the Palestina song (written for the 5. crusade around 1220) is there in innumerable versions, but I couldn't find a single purely instrumental one. The second oldest among those I mentioned yesterday is Landini, an blind musician from around 1300. On the only extant picture of him he is playing a small portable organ, - but on Youtube each and every piece by him is spoiled by singers with voices that could crack glass. When you do hear instrumental music from these periods it is mainly dances, and dances are often anonymous.


Youtube is good if you are curious and looking for music for which you cannot find a recording, but often the sound quality and the performances are poor. I think it was Theodore Sturgeon who said “90% of anything is crap”. That is especially true of the internet. But the internet is such an enormous place, there is still a huge amount of good and useful information out there if you know for what you are looking.

Something interesting to me, after reading your paragraph in English, I was able to understand most of the paragraph you had written in Latin. I don’t know Latin, and I know our languages have many Latin roots, but it was still surprising to me how the meaning became clear not only when side by side with a translation, but also that it was in what some consider a “dead” language.


Iversen wrote:
Van Meegeren was definitely a talented artist, but personally I think that I can see that his style (as it is seen in the painting "Christus in Emmaus") is different from that of Vermeer. Which just goes to show that you can't trust art experts - their opinions can definitely be influenced by wishful thinking and group pressure. Van Meegeren reminds me of the excellent Tom Keating, who had a series of programs on BR Alpha (a German TV station) where he produced paintings in the style of old masters - I have 6 of them on tape: Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Constable*, Renoir, Cezanne and Monet. And while you saw him paint the pictures he explained how each painter built their works, often during a very complicated process in several stages. Unfortunaly he died, han his successor can paint anything but distant mountains with dark forest lakes and spruces in the foreground.


I myself very much enjoy the 17th century Dutch Golden Age painters, of which Vermeer was a part. Also Jacob van Ruisdael, and of course his student, the most excellent (admittedly a little more obscure) Meindert Hobbema!

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Wise owl chick
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 Message 1866 of 3959
01 June 2010 at 6:23pm | IP Logged 
Hobbema wrote:


I myself very much enjoy the 17th century Dutch Golden Age painters, of which Vermeer was a part. Also Jacob van Ruisdael, and of course his student, the most excellent (admittedly a little more obscure) Meindert Hobbema!


Maybe I will study art (or gardening), and if it will include Hobbema, I woudl think of you, not the artist haha!
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Iversen
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 Message 1867 of 3959
01 June 2010 at 8:02pm | IP Logged 
Hobbema wrote:

Youtube is good if you are curious and looking for music for which you cannot find a recording, but often the sound quality and the performances are poor. (...)
Something interesting to me, after reading your paragraph in English, I was able to understand most of the paragraph you had written in Latin. I don’t know Latin, and I know our languages have many Latin roots, but it was still surprising to me how the meaning became clear not only when side by side with a translation, but also that it was in what some consider a “dead” language.(...)


There are a lot of good recordings on Youtube, though it is irritating that longer works are cut to pieces because of the 10 minut rule. But there are also a lot of bootleg recordings from concerts, and the quality of those is mostly appalling. Among the amateurs who publish recordings some are truly awesome, but have crappy equipment. But it is still the most convenient music collection the refer to if I want to publish a link to something I have written about here. For non musical links the situation is worse. Of course there are collections of high quality (for instance the Germanic language series of ProfArguelles or the more informal talks by members of this forum), but most videos on Youtube is simply toe-curlingly idiotic. But still, you get it for free.

And Latin isn't more dead than you make it. For me it is alive an' kicking.

Hobbema wrote:

I myself very much enjoy the 17th century Dutch Golden Age painters, of which Vermeer was a part. Also Jacob van Ruisdael, and of course his student, the most excellent (admittedly a little more obscure) Meindert Hobbema!


I agree - though I have seen far too few of the paintings of the awesome Hobbema to assess his level vis-à-vis his more wellknown contemporaries.

Dat denk ik ook - hoewel ik veel te weinig gezien heb van de schilderijen van mynheer Hobbema om zijn niveau tegenover zijn meer bekend tijdgenoeten te beoordelen.


Edited by Iversen on 01 June 2010 at 8:25pm

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Iversen
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 Message 1868 of 3959
03 June 2010 at 12:27am | IP Logged 
LAT: Lectores hujus themae iam certe sciunt quod mihi lingva latina prorsus non mortua est. Omnis lingua quae digna est discenda etiam digna dictu ac scriptu est - et numerus studiosi hodie crescit qui sermone latine utere quaerunt (etiamsi numerus totius discipulorum linguae verosimiliter decrescit) - etiamsi non quam Cicero sive Vergilius. Hodie verba "spoken Latin" googleavi ut audiofontes latinas reperire. Et celerrime nonnullas fontes utiles reperri.

Situs latinum.mypodcast.com numerum immensum specimina continet. Locutio 'classica' utent dicentes, etiamsi facile est audire quod linguas nativas dissimiles repraesentant, et in ecclesia cattolica locutionem propriam habent. Flocci ex eo non facio, sed credo ut cadentia locutorium nimis lenta est quia nimis sibi sollicitant syllabas lungas bene dicere. Tamen non difficile est intellegere, et per studiosi volubilitatis limitati fortasse melius est ut non veloce loquent oratori.     

Apud home.student.uu.se etiam nonnulla texta locuta dantur.

www.e.millner.btinternet.co.uk innumerabiles conexes continet, etiam ad fontes grammatici latinae lingvae.

Nuntii latini apud www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii atque www.radiobremen.de/nachrichten/latein auscultare potes, et apud Ephemerem nuntios scriptos vides, atque nuntiii ex scientiae ac vitae culturale cotidianae etiam illic datur.

Libri classici medievalique apud www.hs-augsburg.de ac tarheelreader.org vides, et etiam legaliter ex rete prehendere potes - iures proprium scriptorium classicorum medievaliumque iamdudum exierunt!

Et finalis etiam mentionem paginam de Sprachprofi facere quaero. Fontes sermonis latinae definite satis habebam ut ista linguam bene studiarem, i.e. quam linguam vivam.

---
... just a rant about learning Latin as an active language, plus some links to pages with a lot of own material and further links to even more study materials. The total number of Latin learners is probably going down, but it seems that a larger proportion of those who do learn it learn it as an active language. With the amount of material you can get through the internet this has become much easier. So if you don't learn to use Latin actively then it's your own fault, it can't be due to a lack of sources.


Edited by Iversen on 03 June 2010 at 10:19am

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Fasulye
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 Message 1869 of 3959
03 June 2010 at 9:49am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
LAT: Lectores hujus themae iam certe sciunt quod mihi lingva latina prorsus non mortua est. Omnis lingua quae digna est discenda etiam digna dictu ac scriptu est - et numerus studiosi hodie crescit qui sermone latine utere quaerunt (etiamsi numerus totius discipulorum linguae verosimiliter decrescit) - etiamsi non quam Cicero sive Vergilius. Hodie verba "spoken Latin" googleavi ut audiofontes latinas reperire. Et celerrime nonnullas fontes utiles reperri.

Situs latinum.mypodcast.com numerum immensum specimina continet. Locutio 'classica' utent dicentes, sed facile est audire quod linguas nativas dissimiles repraesentant, et in ecclesia cattolica locutionem propria habent. Flocci ex eo non facio, sed credo ut cadentia locutorium nimis lenta est quia nimis sibi sollicitant syllabas lungas bene dicere. Tamen non difficile est intellegere, et per studiosi volubilitatis limitati fortasse melius est ut non veloce loquent oratori.     

Apud home.student.uu.se etiam nonnulla texta locuta dantur.

www.e.millner.btinternet.co.uk multos conexi continet, etiam ad fontes grammatici latinae lingvae.

Nuntii latini apud www.yleradio1.fi/nuntii atque www.radiobremen.de/nachrichten/latein auscultare potes, et apud Ephemeris nuntii scripti videntur, etiam nuntiii ex scientiae ac vitae culturale.

Libri classici medievalique apud www.hs-augsburg.de ac tarheelreader.org vides, et etiam legaliter ex rete prehendere potes - iures proprium scriptores classici medievali iamdudum exierunt!

Et finalis etiam mentionem paginam de Sprachprofi facere quaero. Fontes sermonis latinae definite satis habebam ut ista linguam bene studiarem, i.e. quam linguam vivam.

---
... just a rant about learning Latin as an active language, plus some links to pages with a lot of own material and further links to even more study materials. The total number of Latin learners is probably going down, but it seems that a larger proportion of those who do learn it learn it as an active language. With the amount of material you can get through the internet this has become much easier. So if you don't learn to use Latin actively then it's your own fault, it can't be due to a lack of sources.


Iversen, hic "post" tantopere utilis est!

- My active Latin is so poor, please excuse! But I have the Latin reading skills to understand what you wrote in Latin.

Reading on the website about Lena Meyer-Landrut in Latin, that's excellent!

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 03 June 2010 at 9:53am

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Iversen
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 Message 1870 of 3959
03 June 2010 at 9:52am | IP Logged 
Mihi placet ut lectores habeo!
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Wise owl chick
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 Message 1871 of 3959
03 June 2010 at 7:48pm | IP Logged 
Goede avond allemaal

Ik ben dood moe maar het weer is prachtig. vandaag moetsne we met de trein reizen. We hebben wel soms vercshillende schoolvakken die anders zijn dan wat je zou verwachten haha! Ik wilde in het buitenland, bij voorbeeld Duistland of Nederland (Frankrijk ga ik zoewieso binnenkort bezoeken) maar de route konden we niet zelf bepalen en was vast, ook voor de hele groep dezelfde. ik vertel jullie want ik was in het station van Luik, en vond het erg mooi. Dat is open dus the vrisse lucht waait naar binnen, ook is het dak van glas, en muren een grappige vorm en allemaal in wit. Ook op de grond is er glas.

Mooi station

We waren de hele namiddag op reis, heen en weer want onze trein was langzaam, maar bleven ook een half uur in het station waar er leuke cafés zijn ook kun je buiten zitten maar tegelijkertijd in het station blijevn!




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Iversen
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 Message 1872 of 3959
03 June 2010 at 10:52pm | IP Logged 
DU: Ik heb Liège/Luik bezoekt, maar het is terug in de jaren zeventig, en ik herinnere me absoluut niets meer van zijn station - en wie weet of dit hetzelfde gebouw is nu als toen. De volgende keer dat ik naar België bezoeke zou ik direkt naar Luik gaan om op zijn statioon te kijken.

--

Wise_Owl_Chick has been on an excursion to Liège/Leuk (in French/Dutch (or rather Wallon/Vlaams) - all Belgian towns have double names). She was very impressed by the railway station. I visited the town once during the 70s, so I must have seen a railway station there, but it may not be quite the same thing now. I promised to have a look at it the next time I visit Belgium.

But right now I have other things on my agenda. Let me give an example on one of my current projects: "Teach Yourself Irish" (13. edition 1980). The following text was actually written for another site, but I thought that more people deserved a bit of Irish. Remember: this is a text book for absolute beginners. Heaven knows what the advanced learners have to deal with:

from Exercise 18:

Tá mo leabhar-sa caillte, ach tá do leabhar-sa thall ar an stól
Is! my book-MY lost, andbut is! your book-YOUR yonder on the chair
(I have lost my book, but your book is over there on the chair)

explanation: Irish is a VSO language, so the verb in the hyperliteral version should stand first. In order to mark that this it ISN'T a question I put an exclamation sign. "Tá" means 'is' (but as you already* know there are other forms of the copula verb in negative phrases and in questions (* I did mention that somewhere a few days ago). "caillte" is a past participle, and "ta" plus a participle functions somewhat like an impersonal version of the English compound perfect. The use of possessives is one way of indicating the logical subject of such a sentence.

By the way, Irish doesn't have stressed personal or possessive pronouns, so instead the Eireainn use a reinforcing second pronoun (the -sa) - though it is beyond me why those weird Celts chose "-ta" to support "mo"...

I write "andbut" because it doesn't seem to be a simple 'but', but rather something like the Romanian 'iar'. And I write "yonder" because Irish has three levels of distance: here, there and very far away.

Ready for one more?

An mbeir féin ag dul go Baile Atha Cliath?
Methinks willbe self for you going to Dublin?
(Maybe you'll be going to Dublin yourself? )

Baile Atha Cliath = Village Hurdled Ford
Dublin from the Irish "Dubh Linn" meaning "black pool"

As you see yes-no question starts with an "an", - there are many different an's in Irish, but this one functions like Latin "num" or Danish "mon". After this "na" there is 'eclipse', i.e. one of the canonical ways of changing the beginning of the following word. Here a 'b' is changed into 'm', but the 'b' is retained in writing to remind you of the unchanged version of the word ... which actually is the future of 'to be'. And 'dul' is a irregular verbal noun which means 'going'. Logically "for you will be the-act-of-going to..." means "you have to go to.."

'nuff said


Edited by Iversen on 03 June 2010 at 11:13pm



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