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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2905 of 3959
19 April 2012 at 11:09am | IP Logged 
IT: Ho passato tre ore ieri sera ad ascoltare concerti di Antonio Vivaldi. Egli ha scritto un numero incredibile di concerti e sonate per quasi ogni strumento possibile per i allievi di una scuola per ragazze orfane, e io ho circa 10 ore di musica instrumentale da lui nella mia collezione - e la mia intenzione è di fare una lista degli tema principali. Ma ciò non conta come apprendimento delle lingue, cosicché ho visto anche un programma al canale di Storia sopra la scoperta di 2 navi nella Laguna di Venezia, tra cui il primo recuperato dai famosi galeoni famosi. Era un programma in inglese,ma fortunatamente le interviste con ricercatori Italiani erano in Italiano con sottotitoli in danese.

IR: Léigh mé freisin dhá beathaisnéisí na múinteoirí ón Gaelscoil Uí Dhochartaigh.

BA I: Saya telah menciptakan sebuah transkrip dua bahasa (Bahasa Indonesia dan Portugis) pada bintang di rasi Orion, pemburu besar yang berjalan di sepanjang sungai Eridani dengan anjing besar dan anjing kecil. Pembaca Harri Potter akan mengenali nama bintang Bellatrix.

GR: Διάβασα επίσης για τους Γαλάτες και άλλες Κέλτες σε ένα κείμενο στα ελληνικά. Στην πορεία έμαθα κάποιες απροσδόκητες ορθογραφία των ονομάτων θέση στην Ευρώπη. Για παράδειγμα, ονομάζεται Bohemia (Böhmen) Βοημία.

Yesterday evening I spent three hours listening to concerts of Vivaldi while jotting down the main themes (insofar I didn't have them in my theme collection for my first cassette collection - the second one dates from around 1991-2, and it takes several years to get through all the tapes). Vivaldi wrote his concerts and sonatas for the pupils of a girl orphanage. This obviously doesn't count as language study, but I did also watch a program mainly in English about the find of two ships in the Venezian laguna, including the first and only veneziansk galley ever found.

I also watched the English quiz QI yesterday, and it was claimed that the Bubi tribe from Equatorial Guinea can't speak in the dark because they are too dependent on gestures. Well, believe it or not...

Besides I studied the biographies of two more teachers from that Gaelic school whose list with teacher biographies I have pulled to pieces and listened to word for word using abair.ie and analysed grammatically in every possible way. I bet they didn't write it for that, but thanks anyway.

Besides I have read about the stars of Orion in an Indonesian text and about the Celts in a Greek text. One of the funny things about Greek texts is the way they transcribe foreign place names. For instance I noticed Βοημία for Bohemia (/voimia/). The real surprise came when I would check the Czech name for Bohemia and found this in the English Wikipedia:

"Bohemia (Czech: Čechy;[1] German: Böhmen (help·info); Polish: Czechy; French: Bohême; Latin: Bohemia) is a historical region in central Europe,..."

And yes, it seems to be correct that Bohemia is called the equivalent of Czechia in Polish and Czech - here in the Polish Wikipedia about Bohemia:

"Czechy (czes. Čechy, łac. Bohemia, niem. Böhmen) – jedna z trzech historycznych ziem czeskich (krajów korony świętego Wacława), wraz z Morawami i Śląskiem Czeskim wchodząca w skład dzisiejszej Republiki Czeskiej."

Obviously I had to check what the whole country ('English' Czechia) then is called, and I found in the Polish article about "Czechy (czes. Česko), Republika Czeska (czes. Česká republika)" the following tripartition:

"Kraj składa się z trzech historycznych krain – Czech właściwych, Moraw i części Śląska Austriackiego[3]".

So apparently the name "Bohemia" for the eastern part of modern Czechia isn't used locally in the region. And correspondingly the fourth part of Smetana's "Ma Vlást", which is called ""From Bohemia's woods and fields" in English (and "Aus Böhmens Hain und Flur" in German), is called "Z českých luhů a hájů" in Czech. You can listen to the piece here.


Edited by Iversen on 20 April 2012 at 10:20am

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Iversen
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 Message 2906 of 3959
21 April 2012 at 1:15pm | IP Logged 
I have spent the morning (until noon) updating the files I once established with my own contributions to HTLAL - scared by the fall-out a few days ago. It would be quite irritating if all that stuff just disappeared. And as I spent yesterday evening in the company of members of my travel club I am in the lamentable situation that I don't really have anything to report.*

* except that I right now am watching the news in Greenlandic with Danish subtitles just for fun

Edited by Iversen on 21 April 2012 at 1:53pm

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 Message 2907 of 3959
22 April 2012 at 4:42pm | IP Logged 
Εχω περάσει ένα ευχάριστο πρωινό μελετώντας τα ελληνικά. Τα κείμενα που χρησιμοποιήθηκαν ήταν από την ελληνική Βικιπαίδεια: ένα γενικά για ολους τους Κέλτες, ένα για τους Γαλάτες και επιπλέον αρκετές περίπου γλώσσες, μεταξύ των οποίων μία για την πρωτο-Ευρωπαϊκό που αναφέρθηκε επίσης στην διαίρεση στις γλώσσες ζάτεμ και κέντουμ. Το αστείο είναι ότι όταν ήθελε να βρει την αρχική σελίδα και πάλι, βρήκα ότι έχει αλλάξει - Βικιπαίδεια τρέχει γρήγορα! Όλα τα παρακάτω αποσπάσματα που πληκτρολογούνται σε έντυπη μορφή τους.

Από τα άρθρα σχετικά με το Γαλάτες, θέλω απλώς να αναφέρω ένα μόνο χωρίο που θα ευχαριστήσει τους αναγνώστες του Αστερίξ: " Το ιερóτερο ζωο τους ήταν το αγριογουρουνο, το οποίο εντοπίζεται σαν σύμβολο σε γαλατικό στρατιωτικό εξοπλισμó, (...)".Αλλά τα μενίρ του Οβελίξ δεν είναι ιστορικά - υπήρχαν αυτά χιλιάδες χρόνια πριν από την άφιξη των Γαλατών στην Γαλλία..

Στο άρθρο για τις Ινδοευρωπαϊκών γλωσσών παρατήρησα αυτό το απόσπασμα: "Η πιθανότητα κοινής καταγωγής κάποιων από αυτές τις γλώσσες προτάθηκε για πρώτη φορά από τον Μάρκους Τσίριους φαν Μπόξχορν το 1647, που θεωρούσε ότι εξελίχτηκαν από την σκυθικά, μια ιρανική γλώσσα.". Υπάρχει μόνο ένα σύντομο σημείωμα για αυτό το πρόδρομο τους Γουίλιαμ Τζόουνς, Γκριμ, Ρασκ και Μποπ στην αγγλική Wikipedia και μερικές άλλες εκδόσεις, αλλά η γερμανική Wikipedia έχει ένα εμπεριστατωμένο άρθρο.

Μπορείτε επίσης να διαβάσετε κείμενα με εκτεταμένο κυνήγι των γραμματικών παραδείγματα κάτι υπόψη σου. Είδα αυτό το παράδειγμα κάπου και το έγραψε κάτω: "... για το κατά πόσο έχουν άμεση με τα εκεί αρχαειολογικάα ευρήματα ..." (..with the here archological excavations). Αυτό μου θυμίζει σ'ένα απολύτως γερμανική κατασκευή φράσεων: ".. die hier stattgefundene Ausgrabungen". Εκτός από την περίπτωση αυτή, θα βρείτε μερικά πραγματικά ιδιότυπη ελληνικές κατασκευές σε παραδείγματα σαν αυτά: "Ανήκαν στον πολιτισμό Λα Τεν, του οποίον το λικνό ήταν η βορειονατολική Γαλλíα και η νότια Γερμανία" ((they) belonged tothe culture La Tène, the whose the cradle was the Northeastern Gaul and the Southern Germany). Συγκρίνετε παρακαλώ και αυτό το πολύ κοινή κατασκευή: "οι σύγχρονοι μελετιτές ονόμασαν Κέλτες διάφορους απó αυτούς τους λαούς, .." (the contemporaneous scholars called Kelts various of those the people).   


I have had a pleasant day today because the abominable thing in the neighbouring appartment for once hasn't been at home today, and I have celebrated the resultant peace and quiet by reading texts from the Greek Wikipedia about Celts and Gauls and Etruscan and the history of the Indoeuropean languages (plus a little bit of Irish and Icelandic and Indonesian, with Danish, English and German programs on the telly).

In the text about the Gauls I noticed that the sacred animal of the Gauls actually was the wild boar - so Goscinny didn't get Obelix' prediliction for this critter from nowhere. However the attribution of the menhirs to the Gauls is strictly unhistoric - they were made several thousand years before the arrival of the Gauls. I also noticed that the word for 'druid' (δρυΐδης - notice the double diacritic) doesn't occur in any of my Greek dictionaries. I wonder whether Asterix and the Olympic Games has been translated into Greek because then I might want to buy it next time I'm there.

In the Indoeuropean article I noticed that the usual fathers of historical linguistics (William Jones, spelled "Γουίλιαμ Τζόουνς", brothers Grimm, spelled "Γκριμ", Ρασκ
and Bopp, spelled "Μποπ") had a Dutch forerunner Marcus Zuerius van Boxhorn who already in 1637 proposed that Greek, Latin, Welsh, German, the Slavic languages etc. all derived from one source, which he assumed to be the old Scythian language. Actually the exact location of the speakers of this presumed ancestor of the Indoeuropean languages is still hotly disputed, but Boxhorn's guess was surprisingly sensible - and remember: this hypothesis came centuries before theories of evolution became commonplace in biology and elsewhere. Normally the English Wikipedia has the longest articles, but in this case the honor goes to -nay, not the Dutch version, but the German Wikipedia. Kudos.

I also made a collection of constructions with 'something complicated' before Greek nouns, but it will probably of little interest to others here. So let me just repeat some of my hyperliteral translations from the Greek section above: "the whose the cradle", "of those the people". Which of course reminds one about the schisma between languages like Italian and Portuguese which have article + poss.pronoun + noun (il mio , o meu) and French/Spanish which hasn't got it (mon, mi) - and the which hereby ressembles English and German (my, mein ..), with certain Norwegian dialects standing and laughing at the sideline because they have solved the problem in a totally different way: "Wohne im Vestlandet und hier sagt KEINER konen min, hier ist es immer kona mi,buksa mi,flaska mi... sogar husa mi, schwerer Fall von Dialekt+nynorsk " (= houseThe my).



Edited by Iversen on 26 April 2012 at 2:10pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2908 of 3959
24 April 2012 at 3:54pm | IP Logged 
Normally I have a few free moments in between my tasks at my job so that I can keep track of what is happening here, but the next couple of days I'll be so busy that I even have had to drop some meetings. Don't expect daytime updates.

Yesterday evening I spent something which didn't really had anything to do with my personal language learning, but I was so intrigued by the discussions in the thread Georgian?! Really?!? that I printed out the two Wikipedia pages in the English about Georgian grammar and Georgian verbal paradigms - there is even a warning at the top of the latter against reading it before you have studied the general grammar page (else your head may explode). It certainly does look like the system is complicated - to me it looks like a multidimensional sudoku with letters instead of numbers gone berserk. This evening I'll have a look in my modest Georgian grammar (in French) to see how things are handled there.

ESP: Krome tio, mi transskribitis kaj studis eĉ pli sekciojn de mia libreto el la Esperanto konferenco en Kopenhago 2011 - kaj la celo kompreneble estas priprepari min por la kongreso en Irlando en kelkaj monatoj. Ĉi tiu ankaŭ inkluzivas prilerni taŭgajn vortojn kaj esprimadojn por uzi en la diskutoj pri lernantaj metodoj, kaj mi esperas ke mi povos diskuti vortaretojn kaj aliajn utilajn metodojn por hejmo studoj -kiel kontraŭpezanto al la ĉieaj provizantoj de instruisto-orientaj metodoj.

IT: Ho anche letto molto su Sicilia occidentale, giacchè mi aspetto andare lì con la nuova rotta Ryanair da Billund a Trapani. Tra l'altro ci sono sopravvissuto alcuni templi greci vicino a Selinunte, perché la città fu completamente distrutta dai Cartaginiensi, e c' è anche una città medievale chiamata Erice sulla cima di una collinetta presso di Trapani. Inoltre vorrei rivedere i mosaici normanni di Palermo e Monreale - e forse i morti delle catacombe. E mentre io sto scrivendo questo, penso che ci sono anche nuove rotte per Zadar e Cracovia e Carcassonne - ci sono così tanti posti in cui io vorrei andare quest'anno che semplicemente non ho tempo e soldi per tutto.

DA: Og så har jeg for øvrigt også studeret et par hjemmesider med avancerede løsningsmetoder til sudokuer - inspireret af de georgiske verber.
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 Message 2909 of 3959
25 April 2012 at 1:50am | IP Logged 
FR: Quand j'ai regardé ma grammaire Géorgienne ("Parlons Géorgien" par Irène Assatiani et Michel Malherbe) j'ai trouvé qu'elle a décrit le verbes géorgiens d'une manière assez différente de celle de la Wikipedia anglaise. Donc j'ai résolu de regarder seulement celle-ci.

EN: I first read the general grammar description, then the article with concrete verb paradigms - and I'm absolutely convinced that you need concrete paradigms - and lots of them - to see the patterns. Just reading the descriptions isn't enough. I also noticed a certain number of discrepancies between the descriptions. For instance the paradigm text states that "the versioners in Georgian establish the language establish the language's polypersonalism. Although each version vowel has a specific meaning, most of the time, like preverbs, they have a special meaning". However under the specific Class descriptions it states that for instance the subject with Class I verbs is "indicated by the v- set marker, while the object is indicated by the m- set marker."

In the general text there is a long list of verb components (which luckily don't all coexist all the time), and one of these is the version marker, which can be "any one of the vowels except for /o/. Version markers are semantically diverse. They can add either an unpredictable lexical meaning to the verb, or a functional meaning including causativity, passive voice, subjective version, objective version and locative version. For example, while v-ts'er means "I write it", "v-u-ts'er means "I write it to him/her" (objective version" [...]". And the polypersonalism? Well, it is represented by an element between preverb (a prefix akin to those of Russian and Greek) and the Kartvelian version marker, namely the "prefixal personal marker" or "verb personality". In some cases however this element is placed after the verb root.

It is in the personal marker fields you find the parallel to the personal endings in Western European languages, namely the 3 persons in singular and plurals. But like Basque, Kartveli has markers both for subjects and objects built into the verbal form. And now its partial ergativity kicks in, most clearly in the description of the Class 1 verbs in the paradigm article.

First it should however be mentioned that the articles operate with 4 verb classes, here as named in the general article: 1 = transitive verbs, 2 = intransitive verbs (and the passive voice of class 1 verbs), 3 = medial verbs (those with a subject in the ergative case) and 4 Indirect (and stative) verbs, which typically denotes states, but also include the words for 'can' and 'want'. Secondly it should be mentioned that the system of 'screeves' is divided into 4 subseries (or simply series): the present subseries with Present Indicate, Imperfect and Present subjunctive, the Future subseries with Future, conditional and Future subjunctive, the Aorist series with [nothing], aorist and optative and finally the Perfective series with Present perfect, Pluperfect and the Perfect subjunctive.

Besides there are seven noun/adjective cases: Nominative, ergative, dative, genitive, instrumental, adverbial and vocative. Notice that there isn't any accusative here.

And now we are ready to comprehend the description of the Class 1 verbs:

In the present and the future subseries, the subject is in the nominative case (and imposes a subject marker on the verb), the direct object is in the dative case and leaves an object marker in the verb, and an eventual indirect object is also in the dative case.

In the aorist series the subject is in the ergative case but still leaves a subject marker in the verb, while the direct object is in the nominative case and leaves an object marker. An eventual indirect object is in the dative case.

In the perfective series the subject is in the dative case and leaves the object-marker (here referred to as the 'm series', versus the subject 'v series'), the direct object is in the nominative case and imposes the subject 'v series' marker on the verb. An indirect object is "usually indicated with the post-position -tvis (for)". A post-position is of course a postpositioned (and often enclitic) alternative to prepositions, which in Kartveli are few and mostly borrowed from Russian.

But there are four classes and four chances to have fun. The fourth class contains "indirect or 'inversion' verbs". Why inversion? Well, here the logical subject is generally marked with the m- marker set (which normally is seen as the object marker set). Actually the article says it is the "indirect object marker set", but this doesn't correspond with the terminology used earlier and in the other article. However by now it can hardly surprise anybody that the logical subject is in the dative, and the object is in the nominative (or sometimes genitive).

I'm almost relieved to reiterate that I'm NOT going to learn Georgian here and now - I'm fully booked already - but my short study of the verbal system of Kartveli has taught me quite a lot about the complications which the students of this venerable and exotic language face. Good luck to those who have taken this task upon themselves!

Edited by Iversen on 25 April 2012 at 4:02am

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 Message 2910 of 3959
25 April 2012 at 2:29am | IP Logged 
By the way: here is a sentence knot from one of the Greek texts I studied a few days ago (the one about the Indoeuropean languages):

Το ισόγλωσσο σάτεμ-κέντουμ τυποθετείται ανάμεσα στιν ελληνική (κέντουμ) και την αρμενική (σάτεμ) (που αρκετοί ερευνητές πιστεύσουν ότι σχετίζεται),
The isogloss Satem-Kentum is-classified between in-the Greek (kentoum) and the Armenian (satem) (which many researchers believe that (they)-related-are).

They are not as common in Greek as in for instance Danish and English, which you can expect to produce them all the time.

After my Kartulean excursion I passed through Russian (with a short passage from my history book) to ...

BA I: Bahasa Indonesia, di mana saya mempelajari suatu bagian dari buku panduan saya ke Singapura - yaitu bagian tentang "Images of Singapore" di Cable Car Road - yang saya belum melihat di kunjungan saya ke Singapura. Saya juga banyak membaca beberapa bagian kemudian lebih dangkal (cara 'ekstensif').

And finally I studied Irish. First I filled out a word list with around 60 words from my dictionary. One thing I noticed is how many words only differ by an accent, which is a problem during bulk memorization. Take for instance "leann" (beer, ale) versus "léann" (learning). Or "leamh" (weak) versus "léamh" (hand). I have mostly made Irish wordlists based on the texts which I have worked with - and they certainly gave me enough new words to keep me occupied. For good mesures I also transferred around 40 words from copied texts to wordlists, so I have tried both alternatives tonight.

If you can find time for it, learning vocabulary in isolation is a splendid way to get a fast overview with no strings attached to concrete texts. It is not the first thing you should do in a language, but even though I still have to construct my Irish messages I have been hammering away at this language for months now so its words have now got enough 'personality' for me to make it possible to memorize them without a context. I can even spot some loanwords from English (and Latin) although the Irish in selfdefence have done their best to make them unrecognizable. Such as for instance "leaid" 'lad'.

PS: while I'm sitting here at my 'puter I'm watching Discovery Science. And lo and behold, they speak about translation systems - using an IBM system and English vs. Iraqi Arabic as their example.


Edited by Iversen on 25 April 2012 at 3:04am

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 Message 2911 of 3959
26 April 2012 at 1:32am | IP Logged 
RU: Я вчера вечером работать с моей фотографии и путевые отчеты и другие вещи на моем компьютере, но, кроме того, я, наконец, было выслушано ни к чему русской речи. Я недавно писал о получении голову "жужжить" с иностранным языком, и в этом я писал, что речь была более эффективной чем чтение, поскольку речь идет как остановить власть. И я слушал говорить водопад имени Наталья Толстая!

This evening I have been working with my photos and travelogues on my computer, but at the same time I at last got myself pushed to listen to some Russian. I have recently written about getting your head to 'buzz' in a language in order to activate it, and in that context - and only there - I mentioned that listening is better than reading because talk comes like an unstoppable stream of words ... and you can't just close your ears. In contrast reading stops when you stop reading. In this perspective it is relevant that I have listened to a genuine speaking waterfall named Natalya Tolstaja. Before landing in her company I noticed that there are an exceptionally large number of Russian videos about memory training on Youtube - it must be a very popular concept over there.

Edited by Iversen on 26 April 2012 at 2:09pm

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 Message 2912 of 3959
26 April 2012 at 2:55pm | IP Logged 
I have a few moments for myself right now, and I have spent them on listening to some of the short snippets of Russian speech at one of the sites mentioned in Mae's log thread, and when I saw that it has original text, an attempt at phonetic rendering and a button if you want to listen, then I decided to do some of my own listening exercises on it. I chose the A1-2 level because it has very short snippets.

And I reached the same conclusion as every single time I have tried this technique, namely that I wouldn't have noticed most of the really relevant details if I just had listened extensively (as I did last evening). I only hear them when I take my time to listen closely several times to very short passages.

In my homemade phonetic rendering below I have used /â/ in one place for ы - this s the corrresponding Romanian letter. But in some cases I hear something closer to Danish /y/ (ü in German).

Она из Азии.
She is (not "They are") Asian
/Ana iz azii./
/αnα iz azə/ (NB: not azi as I had expected)

У нее длинные волосы.
She's got long hair.
/Ou niio dliniie volassi/
/ɔnjodlin·jə voləsə/ (notice the prolonged n and the fact that the closed /o/ (or even /u/ of неё continues right into the /d/ of длинные and almost separates it from the rest of the word).

Они афроамериканцы   
They are Afro-Americans
/Ani afroameika'ntsi/
/αn αfrαmæikαntsâ/

I have listened to several other examples and jotted my impressions down, but it takes time to transfer those informal scribblings to digital text so for now I'll leave it at just these three examples. But they should show that I hear something which even the 'pronunciation' column at the site didn't tell me, and which I would happily have skipped in a normal listening situation. My own rendering is certainly not ortodox (and probably incomprehensible to others), but to me it shows pretty well what I heard, and it is suggestive precisely because I chose the symbols myself.


Edited by Iversen on 26 April 2012 at 3:11pm



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