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Iversen’s Multiconfused Log (see p.1!)

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Iversen
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 Message 2505 of 3959
10 July 2011 at 6:32pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Hm, ĉu la lingvo evoluigas? -s finala de la futuro perdiĝu(s)? Flexiĝa infinitivo estas evolvanto (kiel en Portugeso)? Aŭ infinita optativo?


Mi faris eraro de malzorgemo: in citaĵo ne devus esti "futuro", sed "kondicionalo". Kondicionaloj de esperanto estus formo finito kun la fino - us (futuro: - os).

Wikipedia diras:

The conditional mood is used for such expressions as se mi povus, mi irus (if I could, I would go) and se mi estus vi, mi irus (if I were you, I'd go).

The jussive mood, called the volitive in Esperanto, is used for wishing and requesting, and serves as the imperative. It covers some of the uses of the subjunctive in European languages:
    Mi petis, ke li venu. (I asked him to come.)
    Li parolu. (Let him speak.)


Estas aliaj lingvoj kiu uzas subjunctives kiel imperativoj, ekzemple hispana: "¡Hable Ud!" (parolu!). Kialo de ĉi tiu estas kompreneble, ke ĝentila optative substituigis pri la veraj imperativoj.La scivola afero en esperanto estas tio, ke la tielnomita "volitivo" mankas fina -s (kiu normale indikas 'finita' verboformo) - kaj mi tial indikas la paralela kun aliaj lingvoj kiu uzas 'infitaj' formoj anstataŭ 'finitaj' verboformoj. Sed ĉi tiu mi farigis neklaran, kial mi malvere mencis la futuron anstataŭ la kondicionalon. Rekte "Hm, ĉu la lingvo evoluigas? -s finala de la kondiconalo perdiĝis?"

Se esperanto estis tute logika, estus enuiga.

Kuikentje wrote:

We hebben hier iets heel liefs gezien: er zijn vleermuizen die hier wonen, in het gebouw!! Vind je vleermuizen leuk?


Vleermuizen zijn erg interessant, en ik heb gezien buiten en binnen en veele plaatsen zoals in grotten in Sarawak. Maar het word waarschijnlijk noodig te schoonspoelen waar de dieren hangen - Ik kan me nog herinneren de stank in Deer Cave in Sarawak!

---

I muddled my point in the message about Esperanto from friday by referring to the future tense. I had seen a text with lots of verbs on -u in situations where the intended function clearly was a finite form in the subjunctive. But this is one more case where a chance has been lost to make Esperanto logical: all other finite forms end in -s, infinite ones (plus the imperative) don't. And the socalled 'subjunctive' which actually is a special use of the 'volitive' is clearly used in situations where other languages typically would have a finite subjunctive form. The inspiration for this awkward situation clearly is the mixture of true imperatives and optative uses of subjunctive forms instead of imperatives in other languages, including Spanish: "¡hable usted!". So where these languages let their subjunctive invade the territory of the imperative, Esperanto has gone in the opposite direction and let the imperative take over the normal territory of subjunctives. It would have been more logical to use the conditional on -us.

And is this a criticism of Esperanto? Certainly not! Without such illogical details Esperanto wouldn't be as close to 'natural' languages as it is, and that's one reason I take a special pleasure in digging them up. The -u in adjectival "kiu" (instead of -a) and the strict avoidance of anything remotely looking like a compound perfect are other examples of this.


Edited by Iversen on 12 July 2011 at 11:14am

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Iversen
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 Message 2506 of 3959
11 July 2011 at 5:57pm | IP Logged 
GER: Ich möchte Leute, die sich für Deutsch interessieren, unbedingt eine neunteilige Serie über dreißig oder so deutsche Dialekte und andere Sprachvarianten empfehlen - alles in allem gibt es hier anderthalb Stunde von Information und informative Unterhaltung.

Zum Beispeil gibt's anscheinend kein 'g' in Westphalen - dort leben Leute wie die Khhhertrud, der Khhhustaf und ihre Freunde. 'Schlesisch' (eigentlich Gebirgsschlesisch) klingt so "dorrr wouow wouow doourr" so darüber kann ich nichts weiteres sagen. Um 7'55" dann endlich ein Bißchen Mecklenburger Platt (von zwei Fischer gesprochen). Kommentar einer nicht-lokaler Dame: "Ich verstehe kein einziges Wort. Nix. Ich verstehe nix." Gut, ganz klar gesprochen war es auch nix. Aber trotzdem: in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern spricht angeblich jeder fünfte Platt - dort möchte ich hin!

Es wird auch einige lächerliche Denglisch-Sprecher präsentiert: "die bissinisse" uzw.. Und dann als Reaktion von Professor Dingelding: "Je wertvoller ein Produkt ist, je weniger wird Englisch benutzt, weil dann das Argument zählt. Je wertloser ein Produkt ist, je weiter man die Masse ensprechen will, gibt man sich den Anschein des Internationalität und des Wertvollen indem man darin drei, vier englische Ersatsstücke hereinmogelt" (6'59").

Und bis jetzt hab' ich nur die erste Volge kommentiert - es gibt wie gesagt neun davon! In Teil 2 wird z.B. Niederrheinisch aus der Krefelder Gegend präsentiert (um 9'10"), und die Niederländische Verbindung wird dort mehrmals hervorgehoben. Aber das wussten wir ja schon.   


Edited by Iversen on 12 July 2011 at 11:15am

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Fasulye
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 Message 2507 of 3959
11 July 2011 at 6:22pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
Und bis jetzt hab' ich nur die erste Volge kommentiert - es gibt wie gesagt neun davon! In Teil 2 wird z.B. Niederrheinisch aus der Krefelder Gegend präsentiert (um 9'10"), und die Niederländische Verbindung wird dort mehrmals hervorgehoben. Aber das wussten wir ja schon.   


Ich habe mir eben die Fundstelle angehört. Das Krefelder "Kriewelsch" wird etwas sparsam behandelt und als "Niederrheinisch" bezeichnet. Erstaunlicherweise wird der Dialekt in Krefeld mit dem Dialekt in Kleve in einen Topf geworfen, dabei liegen die Städte Krefeld und Kleve ungefähr 50 km auseinander. Kleve liegt nördlich von Krefeld. Richtig aber ist, dass es ein niederländischer Dialekt ist und, dass die Dialektsprecher die niederländische Sprache passiv verstehen können. Wir haben übrigens an unserer Schule zwei Mitarbeiter, die fließend Kriewelsch sprechen können.

Fasulye

Edited by Fasulye on 11 July 2011 at 6:26pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2508 of 3959
12 July 2011 at 8:01pm | IP Logged 
Platt: Moin. Ek höff noch fief afsnitten vun die düütse Dialektserie op Youtube sehn. Het mehrst unverwchtens weer die Friesen sien Methood üm die Friese Sprook te föddern: een niege Inwohner in Friesland hadde dree Johre in die Sprook te lehrn - sünst wöör he doodmaakt. Aver nu is Friesisch sülvst fast dood.

IT: E parlando dei congiuntivi: ho continuato a leggere Meridiani - la rivista di viaggi Italiana con le tendenze di lusso. Ma il linguaggio è anche lussuoso, e ho imparato un sacco di espressioni divertente con congiuntivi avventurati.   

I have listened to five episodes more from the Youtube series about German dialects which I mentioned yesterday. Today there were of course a lot of curious details, but the most curious was the claim that the Frisians had a hard, but effective language conservation strategy in the medieval period (where the area still was independent) - any immigrant had to learn Frisian within three years, otherwise he was killed. Mon Dieu! But it didn't help in the long run: one single village still speaks Eastern Frisian, 20.000 persons or less speak Northern Frisian and even the most vigorous dialect (Western Frisian) is in serious jeopardy.

Btw. I have never read about that rule before, and I would like to know the source. You shouldn't trust everything you hear!

Besides I continue to read Meridian, the Italian travel magazine with the luxurious attitude, sprawling culinary vocabulary and bold syntactic constructions. Maybe my speech will be coloured by this kind of reading, but I don't mind. I learned part of my grammar by making thematic collections so here goes:

"chi" in 'independent' subordinates (my name for them) and other interesting phrase types:

Al di là dei monumenti, questa città venete (...) regala a chi la visita, oltre a un senso di pacifica rilassatezza, scorci davvero belli (p. 83).

Sono proprio le radici storiche, le conoscenze profonde delle più avanzate tecnologie (...) che nascono e vivono grazie all'esperienza di chi è artefice dell'arte spumantistica Italiana (p. 95).

Ecco allora che chi, nel Rinascimento, poteva pagare un pittore si faceva affrescare la facciata della casa con scene mitologiche o religiose, (...) (p.83)

Nei giorni di cattivo umore pare che infligga rabbiosi colpi di becco ai polpacci di chi l'avvicina (p. 130).

(...) i ristoranti e le famiglie hanno i loto fornitori preferiti, chi a Chioggia, chi a Venezia, chi a Genova (p.100).

And finally a delicious construction with several subjunctives and a fish:

Non c'è ristorante, non c'è gastronomia e non c'è famiglia che,ancor oggi, non cucini lo stocca fisso* nella maniera classica (p.98).
Stocca fisso = Stokfisk (salted fish from Norway)


Edited by Iversen on 14 July 2011 at 10:18am

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Iversen
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 Message 2509 of 3959
15 July 2011 at 2:07pm | IP Logged 
LA: Antequam ad urbem* die dominis ire mihi paruit sensibiliter etiam res latinas legere, et quamobrem in navem praetoriam latinitatis conscendi nomine Ephemeris (quae saepe hic demonstrabam). De multo non hic est dicendum quia materiae sensibles sunt ac cientes - sicut praeses dacorum Basescu bellum nazistarum laudans, valetudo Hugonis Chávezis dubiosa esse, dux IMF Strauss-Kahn stupri accusatus semper fieri, Monam Lisam non Italicis exponanda causa commodari esse (diffidentia causa?) - sed de risu credo dicendum sit!

Investigatoribus de Universitate Glamorganiae in Cambria affirmant quod..
"Qui inter annum vicesimum et tricesimum versantur fere quadries rident per diem; illi tamen qui inter triginti et quadraginta annos nati sunt, saepius, id est, quinquies. (…) Qui quinqagesimum agunt annum, se risui ter tantum quotidie dedunt; qui autem sexagesimum, bis et dimidies. "
Opinio mea est juvenales magis ridere quam majores, et gnati aetatis sub II-III annis sunt qui maxime rident. Fortasse ideo tam excellenti linguas discendere sunt?

*Roma

I have once again boarded the flagship of Neolatin, the excellent Ephemeris. However I'll have to resist from commenting on many of their frontpage news because they are too political and/or controversial. This includes things like some positive comments from the Romanian president Basescu about the German invasion of the Sovjet Union (the Russians didn't like that!), a message about the arrest of Strauss-Kahn (without a reference to the later developments in that case), the questionable health of Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez and the reluctance of the French authorities to lend Mona Lisa to Italy for an exhibition in Firenze (Florence).. so luckily I found an innocuous little article about the frequency of laughing in different ages groups. Apparently 30-40 years old people laugh more than those who are 20-30 years old, and very old people laugh less. However my impression is that kids laugh more than adults, and their daily laughing isn't assessed here.

Even if you don't read Latin you should have a look at the page in question to have a look at some happy youngsters.

Edited by Iversen on 15 July 2011 at 2:11pm

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Iversen
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 Message 2511 of 3959
15 July 2011 at 7:48pm | IP Logged 
LAT: (To Kuikentje:) Quid - Ephimeridem non accedere potes? Qui ridentes vides:



Eg har i dag set norsk Tv (NRK1), og nordmennene har jo svært mange goe naturutsendelser. I dag var det fra eit sted i Telemarka, visstnok Trillesmarka eller noko sånt. Der hade dei FEM hakkspet-art: tretåspett, svartspett, grønspett, flaggspett og dvergspett. De hade og noko kallat Huldrestry - dett er verdens lengste lav og henger løsrevet og drapert over kvister og greiner som huldra sitt kvite hår. Huldra er ei mytologisk jente som lever i skoga (i Grekland hade ho vert definert som ei nymfe), men noko gong gifta hon seg med ein normal mann. Her er eit lite eventyr på nynorsk om ei gift hulder.

I have watched a Norwegian nature program from NRK1 about Trillesmark in the Telemark. It is an area where nature has been preserved to the extent that they have no less than five species of woodpeckers. They also have lots of weird fungi, lichen and things like that, including the longest lichen in the world, which is called 'huldre hair' - named after a supernatural elf lady from the woods (in English it is called Old Man's Beard or Methuselah's Beard Lichen). Right now I'm back at NRK and I'm watching a program about chameleons. In the meantime I have checked the homepage of NRK, but you can only watch their programs from within Norway.


Edited by Iversen on 14 September 2011 at 12:07am

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 Message 2512 of 3959
15 July 2011 at 10:47pm | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
De hade og noko kallat Huldrestry - dett er verdens lengste lav og henger løsrevet og drapert over
kvister og greiner som huldra sitt kvite hår.

Eg såg ein gong eit program på TV der det blei hevda at lav som veks på gran (eg veit ikkje om det var huldrestry
eller eit anna lav) er opphavet/inspirasjonen til det glitteret vi pyntar juletrea med.

Edited by tractor on 15 July 2011 at 10:47pm



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